Falcon supercar, another attempt

[flappist]

Ok, I will try this again as the first one got derailed by those suffering from one or more of the various pro/anti GTHO fixations.

The miami GTs are imminent and as other than the $150k W427, the F6 is currently the quickest Australian built car the new GT should be the king of the hill.

Of course it is very unlikely that it will be as quick as a W427 and the extra $80k of technology does seem to work rather well.

This will ensure that any discussion with a holden bogan will almost always contain several references to "W427 is quicker/faster/gooder/sicker" despite it being significantly dearer.

So here is a cunning plan (version 2).

The FPV "insert name here than does not have any derivation from GT, GTHO or reference to Bathurst or in fact racing of any kind"

Lots of carbon fibre, alloy panels and go fast race track trick stuff.
Engine in the "beyond silly" class and cabin fitout that makes an XT look luxurious.

Think Falcon meets Lotus Exige and Porsche GT2.

How about "Fastest 4 door production car in the world" (where have I heard that before?)

Cost: $300,000 to $500,000 per unit. Each is hand crafted and built AFTER it is paid for in full so there will be no discounting.

Something like the SVT GT40, a special impractical car for those with too much money.
It may even be exportable to UK and other RHD countries that miss out on a lot of the LHD supercars.

They will sell stuff all of them and will draw the scrooby crabs like free beer at a football match.

BUT

All they need is to sell ONE to some cashed up bogan and that puts the "vehicle to be named later" and FPV squarely on top.

The scroobies can't win because it is far too expensive for average "hoons" and there are too many powerful people who like their lambos/ferarris etc. to allow the wowsers to cause any grief at the supercar end of the market.

The only reply "team B" can make is to build something similar and as these are just silly there will no longer be any real relevance.

This will put any future HSV/FPV vehicle that is grossly more expensive than GTS/GT-H/Grange/F6 into the same group as GT40 or ZR1.

Argument solved (or more accurately, dissolved )

So is this a cunning plan? Or not......

P.S. The name of this car can only be made up from 22 letters as T O H & G are prohibited.

P.P.S. This is totally hypothetical and extremely unlikely to actually happen.

[NudgE^SIKBRO]

+1 Id sign up if i didnt have to remortgage my already mortgaged house to get one... But, you know it and I know it the idiots at Ford dont know it and that my friend is the problem...

[geckoGT]

Its a nice idea, although it will never happen. The development costs of such a car and the potential for sale will not build a business case for its creation. Such a car would end up so expensive that very few would ever be built, yet even the development cost of building one would be a huge financial loss. You have to consider that for any manufacturer to produce such a track weapon, they have to do it with responsibility and give it handling and safety features that the current donor car just will not allow without massive re development.

But, keeping in with the dreamtime speculation and pretending for a moment that FPV have both the desire and business case for building a $500k 4 door supercar, it will not end the argument. Once you have a sale price of that sort of scale, the contenders are some pretty stiff competition, now Maserati, Porsche, Aston Martin, BMW and Mercedes get an invite. There is some pretty stiff competition form those manufacturers and assuming that FPV could trump them once, those manufacturers would not tolerate it. There is no way they would accept that a manufacturer as small scale as FPV should beat them and out would come a super hot version of their current wares which in reality would not take too much to take back the crown. Additionally most of those manufacturers do it with full luxury and not stripped out track weapons. Really, who wants a stripped out, bare bones, air conditioning optional 4 door?

The war would most definitely go on.

[DJM83]

Any mention of those famous four letters will be removed

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

But, keeping in with the dreamtime speculation and pretending for a moment that FPV have both the desire and business case for building a $500k 4 door supercar, it will not end the argument. Once you have a sale price of that sort of scale, the contenders are some pretty stiff competition, now Maserati, Porsche, Aston Martin, BMW and Mercedes get an invite. There is some pretty stiff competition form those manufacturers and assuming that FPV could trump them once, those manufacturers would not tolerate it. There is no way they would accept that a manufacturer as small scale as FPV should beat them and out would come a super hot version of their current wares which in reality would not take too much to take back the crown. Additionally most of those manufacturers do it with full luxury and not stripped out track weapons. Really, who wants a stripped out, bare bones, air conditioning optional 4 door?

The war would most definitely go on.

This is probably the most relevant point. Anything that is put up into this price bracket will have to compete with the big guns, who have more money and development than is capable here. Lets go the next level - put it into the 1m plus category. It will then go up against the hypercars.
And what would be the point? It would get called a four letter name, but no-one could afford it. Ford make huge losses and looks like a dill to its American owners. As a result, it would not be seen as a production car, therefore not part of the red vs blue rivalry. Much like putting a falcon badge on a mustang and pretending it is the new falcon coupe! It does not prove anything.

[Kryton]

Absolutely pointless project.
FPV put out 400kw, HSV are just going to put out 407kw, so on and so forth.
FPV can make the best car in the world, better than the W427 and it may stay that way for an amount of time, but HSV will just make something better yet again.
Let them have the 'crown', Ford already have the 'crown' for the best Aussie Muscle car ever - the GT-HO, and that isnt going to change any time soon.

[pauljh74]

Won't happen - if you move into the $300k+ bracket - there's too many cars with serious pedigree and proven models. Even the Ford GT - was USD$150k - had history and drove well. Still people who had a couple of hundred Gorillas to spend would have overlooked it for traditional prestige brands.

The Dagger GT is a good example - $500k+ US - quicker than a Veyron in a straight line, but unlikely to handle anywhere near as well as one or any other Hypercar offered by the traditional marques in that price bracket. It won't be the complete package someone with a cheque book that size will demand.

[pottery beige]

better off grabbin a second hand Lambo with that coin.... pull lots more chicks than some riced up taxi....

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

This is probably the most relevant point. Anything that is put up into this price bracket will have to compete with the big guns, who have more money and development than is capable here.

Very true, the likes of Porsche would release a version of the Panamera that whips it easily, with all the associated luxury and build it at a loss per unit just for the sake of owning the title. Just like VW did with the Veyron, each unit was sold at a massive loss but it was done as an engineering exercise and for the sake of holding the title.

I could imagine it now, Aston Martin would be insulted that mere colonials could build something better. Porsche, Mercedes and BMW would not tolerate the title holder being made out of europe. Ferrari, Lamborghini and Maserati would not tolerate Ford owning the title, it must be Italian. If anything it would incite a war, not end it.

The point is these manufacturers have a much deeper pool of resources to play these silly games with, the likes that Ford and FPV can not compete with and remain in business after it. Lets face it, the creation of such a monster will not do a lot to increase sales of their more mainstream wares and therefore are of no benefit.

For it to have any success, it would have to come in under $200k to keep the euro's out of it and then it is back up against the W427

[Ryan]

I'm finding myself caring less, and less about the power figures FPV, and HSV can pull off these days.

I would much rather prefer them to have a deeper look at refined brakes, suspension, chassis, tyres, weight loss etc. Imagine a new HSV, or FPV with similar weight to a VL/XF with the vehicle dynamics given a heavy look over?

Probably not the most cost effective exercise, but it doesn't hurt one to dream right?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Ryan

I'm finding myself caring less, and less about the power figures FPV, and HSV can pull off these days.

I would much rather prefer them to have a deeper look at refined brakes, suspension, chassis, tyres, weight loss etc. Imagine a new HSV, or FPV with similar weight to a VL/XF with the vehicle dynamics given a heavy look over?

Probably not the most cost effective exercise, but it doesn't hurt one to dream right?

Personally I think you are spot on here. FPV and HSV are both putting out pure power and torque figures that compare well with the go fast euro's. The difference is they do not offer the dynamics, handling, grip or brakes that compare for a true shot at the last word of the fast 4 door title when yo look at cars like the C63 AMG and M3/M5. Perhaps that is where their largest improvements can be made, a car that better puts all that power to the ground.

I certainly believe there is at least a large part of the performance car buying public that would be willing to consider FPV or HSV over the fast euro's (at the right price), but they do not really care about boot badges advertising power figures. When you are looking at $200k+, you need more than a boot badge of 350+ to get their interest.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Really, who wants a stripped out, bare bones, air conditioning optional 4 door?

The war would most definitely go on.

Probably the same people who buy Lotus, Porsche GT2 & GT3, Elfin etc.

Yes those are all 2 door but then who would buy what is basically a family car with a bloody big engine and some stickers under the pretext that it is a high performance sports vehicle, I mean apart from all the FPV and HSV customers.....

[tezxr8man]

Originally Posted by davway

Absolutely pointless project.
FPV put out 400kw, HSV are just going to put out 407kw, so on and so forth.
FPV can make the best car in the world, better than the W427 and it may stay that way for an amount of time, but HSV will just make something better yet again.
Let them have the 'crown', Ford already have the 'crown' for the best Aussie Muscle car ever - the GT-HO, and that isnt going to change any time soon.

Sounds like you're scared of a challenge. no offense intended. If its its worth doing there has to be the passion and the drive to to it properly and fight to make it the best it can be, no compromises.Really is the any other name besides those 4 letters we can't speak of befitting of such a machine??? it would be aussie made and a more than worthy contender for anything. I love the idea just don't call it Tangerine or something Girly like that

[Nikked]

It's pathetic that a ford forum can't have a discussion on a GT ++ without threads being locked and threats given out. Down right pathetic, some people are oversensitive to the name...

Anyway, on topic. All Ford needs is a limited number HI-PO model to sit above the GT. When the first GT was released, it was a performance special, built to do bathurst. It then became a 'Regular' model, and the 'Other one' was developed to sit on top, to undertake what the original GT started out.

Hear we are in 2010, and we have a GT in regular production, and there is no harm in bringing out a model to sit above the GT (and we all know what it has to be called).

The problem is, will it be a luxo spec (W427) or a slightly hard edge car, like a EVO or something...

Recaro buckets in the front? lightweight alloys? Stripped out? Will it be a XT falcon with a ball tearing 400kw supercharged V8? There is production car racing in australia, so a more race oriantated car could go downwell. The question iis, will australians pay 150 odd grand for a stripped out family car?

[Pepscobra]

Originally Posted by Nikked

It's pathetic that a ford forum can't have a discussion on a GT ++ without threads being locked and threats given out. Down right pathetic, some people are oversensitive to the name...

Anyway, on topic. All Ford needs is a limited number HI-PO model to sit above the GT. When the first GT was released, it was a performance special, built to do bathurst. It then became a 'Regular' model, and the 'Other one' was developed to sit on top, to undertake what the original GT started out.

Hear we are in 2010, and we have a GT in regular production, and there is no harm in bringing out a model to sit above the GT (and we all know what it has to be called).

The problem is, will it be a luxo spec (W427) or a slightly hard edge car, like a EVO or something...

Recaro buckets in the front? lightweight alloys? Stripped out? Will it be a XT falcon with a ball tearing 400kw supercharged V8? There is production car racing in australia, so a more race oriantated car could go downwell. The question iis, will australians pay 150 odd grand for a stripped out family car?

Remember the VR Commodore HSV GTS-R (ugly yellow thing with huge rear wing)?
Wasnt this done in exactly the way you have described above? As a stripped back race car?
Wasnt too successful for HSV if memory serves correctly.

What Ford/FPV need right now is a 'hero car'. Doesnt matter what its called, as long as it ticks all the right boxes and gets people drooling. What those boxes are exactly, everyone has their different opinions.

My opinion... look at the original XR GT; based on the Fairmont at the time, so it had all the fruit available in the cabin aswell as the most potent motor available at the time.

This is what I feel the new 'hero car' should be like.

[flappist]

A few here are missing the point.

Will Australians pay $150k for a stripped out falcon?
Probably not many.

Will they pay $500,000 for a rough as guts stripped out falcon that does 330km/h, 0-100 in 3.2 seconds 0-400m in 11 seconds and laps Bathurst within cooee of a V8SC?
Only if they are far too rich for their own good.

But the US did not send Armstrong to the moon so that everyone could fly in rockets.
The Poms did not make the Concorde just to make the trip between London & New York 4 hours shorter.
We did not build the Sydney Opera House to listen to singing.
Nissan, Honda, Ferrari and Porsche et al. do not spend gazillions on cutting 0.1 seconds off their Nurburg ring time to sell a few supercars.

FLAGSHIP –noun

1. a ship carrying the flag officer or the commander of a fleet, squadron, or the like, and displaying the officer's flag.

2. the main vessel of a shipping line.

3. any of the best or largest ships or airplanes operated by a passenger line.

4. the best or most important one of a group or system: This store is the flagship of our retail chain.

5: the FPV Flappistmobile

[castellan]

A GT is only a GT.
Like we had a GT Capri.
And the GT Escort, but the RS Escort were the legend weapon of Escorts weren't they.
The flagship is the LTD.
A GT is only what it is and nothing more.
Like what does holdens GTS stand for, nothing much relay.
It's the GT with the "GT-HO" that makes the big difference.

[Glennz XR8]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

What Ford/FPV need right now is a 'hero car'. Doesnt matter what its called, as long as it ticks all the right boxes and gets people drooling. What those boxes are exactly, everyone has their different opinions.

My opinion... look at the original XR GT; based on the Fairmont at the time, so it had all the fruit available in the cabin aswell as the most potent motor available at the time.

This is what I feel the new 'hero car' should be like.

Isn't that the gap that the GTe and F6e fill?. That's what I thought anyway.

[JimNiki]

What makes me laugh is that we cannot say the 4 letters even though the whole post is a self confessed pie in the sky idea...

It's like the movie Inception... I don't know any more where the BS starts or stops...
hehe...

At the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with a few petrol heads dreaming up stuff ... that's what keeps us going...

[mrbaxr6t]

alright heres the hurdles that need to be overcome to make a "hero falcon"

• it needs to be lightweight in comparision to a standard falcon without compromising anything
• it needs to be instantly recognizable as both a falcon and as the cream of the crop at the same time
• it needs to have real race pedigree and track success in street trim
• it also has to perform wildly greater than cars worth lots more money
• it needs to be sold in limited numbers

in todays economic climate building such a car would be at a loss no automaker can afford to do something that they know will lose money before they undertake it, times have changed from the days of the 60s & early 70s performing such a feat is a hugely daunting task, and I can guarantee you no matter what Ford do they will be bagged out for some reason by people on this very forum, you want a hero car look to the typhoons and the GT-P I am afraid this is pretty much as far as the envelope can be stretched whilst still remaining profitable.

[Revolver]

Originally Posted by flappist

A few here are missing the point.

Will Australians pay $150k for a stripped out falcon?
Probably not many.

Will they pay $500,000 for a rough as guts stripped out falcon that does 330km/h, 0-100 in 3.2 seconds 0-400m in 11 seconds and laps Bathurst within cooee of a V8SC?
Only if they are far too rich for their own good.

But the US did not send Armstrong to the moon so that everyone could fly in rockets.
The Poms did not make the Concorde just to make the trip between London & New York 4 hours shorter.
We did not build the Sydney Opera House to listen to singing.
Nissan, Honda, Ferrari and Porsche et al. do not spend gazillions on cutting 0.1 seconds off their Nurburg ring time to sell a few supercars.

I was thinking about this the other day myself...... & came to this.

IF there was consideration for this 500k car, then where do we start, in fact dont. Not the idea, I mean the idea of it coming from ford/fpv. Now a V8SC is worth about 300k if I remember correctly. Why not de-tune a V8SC???

Now I am fully aware that there are components on a SC that arent necessary needed for the road, or road legal. Some may say the whole car. However taking the principle of grabbing a Falcon & spicing it, why not go the opposite direction? elimnate everything that is required for a V8SC race event so: the jacks the cars use for pitstops, the whole/most of the roll cage, single nut fot the wheels, & virtually everything thats ajustable, (wing, maybe suspension, etc) & replace with HIPO road work stuff. You get the general idea. Replace the engine with the newest (& further tricked up) motor in the FPV range, dump it in, Bingo the FPR Devastor (The name maybe a bit poncy, but you get the drift, or lots with too much throttle!)

Im not familiar with any ADR's/AS (other than AS1684) nut this would obviously need to comply with these & state requirements. FPR/SBR/FPV makes a buck, the yobbos get a car they can rant about & never afford, Mr rich gets his toy & HSV is left cowering in embarressment & shame.

BBII

P.S also leave out the antics of "when & how can they build it? cause they have they're own cars to build" etc. Like I said you get the drift.

[1TUFFUTE]

HUH... whats this about no one balled enough to say GT HO. WHAT THE. Are you kidding. I see no reason why fpv shouldnt produce a model above the gt and bring it under the w427 price range but have it more race spec orientated instead of comfy touring. AND CALL IT THE GT HO. Wy not ford has deserved and earned the right to make what they want....and if its done properly and well with the new engines we have coming there should be no problem.....so whats the problem....am i missing something

[4Vman]

For those who didnt/CANT read..

Originally Posted by flappist

Ok, I will try this again as the first one got derailed by those suffering from one or more of the various pro/anti GTHO fixations.P.S. The name of this car can only be made up from 22 letters as T O H & G are prohibited.

And...

Originally Posted by DJM83

Any mention of those famous four letters will be removed

Any chance we can stick to the topic...???

[FPV8U]

I'd love to see them do it, but i just don't think Ford Aus has the balls for such a project, maybe Prodrive/FPV if their middle eastern investors were keen.

[vztrt]

I would love to see a T-HOG Falcon. But even if came out the war will continue.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by flappist

A few here are missing the point.
Will Australians pay $150k for a stripped out falcon? Probably not many.

FLAGSHIP –noun

My veiw all along has been that FPV need a model to sit above the GT as a flagship model.

Are car that will be lusted after by many, a australian version of the Current GT500 Mustang, A visualy stunning and powerfull car.

It doesn't need to be a race car, it just needs be exsist. 400Kw supercharged V8, limited to three colours. Blue, Gold and White. Specific stripes and wheels. Slightly more 'racy' interior.

FPV's new G---, Send the loin back to the cage.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

Probably the same people who buy Lotus, Porsche GT2 & GT3, Elfin etc.

Yes those are all 2 door but then who would buy what is basically a family car with a bloody big engine and some stickers under the pretext that it is a high performance sports vehicle, I mean apart from all the FPV and HSV customers.....

What if Ford Australia were given the Ford GT platform with a brief to make it better and more production friendly with updated composite materials available today. One can only wonder how a truly exotic mid engined car engineered with FoA practicality may have succeeded on the world market...

[Revolver]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

For those who didnt/CANT read..
And...
Any chance we can stick to the topic...???

Odd my post has been deleted, however, there are many references the ford holly nameplate..... "4 letters" "GT++" etc... There seems to be confusion over what this thead has been about. I was under the impression myself that this was about a falcon supercar, & NOT calling it you know what. My first post was about topic, the second (& deleted have PM'd DJM over clarrification on this matter), not so much. Umph.... Fair enough.

REMEMBER PEOPLE: FALCON SUPERCAR

[Riksta]

Originally Posted by flappist

Engine in the "beyond silly" class

Supercharged V10?

[Franco Cozzo]

In my opinion, put the money you would spend designing this Falcon Supercar into the products which are actually making you money.