Bathurst

R0BD0G · 24-12-2007, 09:26 PM

was wondering if anyone can post pics of dick johnsons XE or if anyone can tell me why the texaco sierras were disqualified ages ago

Blue Oval Mopar Man · 24-12-2007, 10:02 PM

While I dont have any pics of dicks XE , The texaco sierras were disqualified for Illegal rear guard modifications. Appperently they were slightly pumped for clearance or something ! sounds like another case of "Oh my, holden lost again, lets pic something on the fords and cheat them out off a win ! Brocky came 3rd in his Mobil commodore so he was given the win! Some looser tried to give me heaps at the boozer on base later that night , got angry after I let him know that I saw 2 fords win and he cant do anything about that , so he tried to thump me . That was fine with me so I smashed him a few times and kicked his *** out of the boozer!

boss-290 · 24-12-2007, 10:07 PM

1984 - Oran Park

As for the Texaco Sierra's, I'm not sure why they were disqulaified. Something technical I would imagine.

Here's a piccie -

henry351 · 24-12-2007, 11:04 PM

Maybe you will like this except for the end

:
Sounds so sweet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2Gai...eature=related

R0BD0G · 24-12-2007, 11:12 PM

seen it....ive got that one in my favourites. thanx for the info. but some more pics would be appreciated

24-12-2007, 11:32 PM

The Texico cars had illegal fuel in them, says at the end of that race in the Bathurst Turbulant years Video/DVD

devilcv8 · 24-12-2007, 11:45 PM

While the initial finding was illegal fuel it was determined the sierra's had illegal wheel arches.

"After 6 months in court it was found that both Texaco Sierra's passed the fuel analysis but were found guilty of having wider than permitted wheel arches and Peter Brock was awarded his 9th 'win' being the third place getter."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Oval Mopar Man

Appperently they were slightly pumped for clearance or something ! sounds like another case of "Oh my, holden lost again, lets pic something on the fords and cheat them out off a win !

so it's ok to cheat if it's only slightly is it? Similar to the early years of V8 supercars where ford ran lightened body shells and panels, but that wasn't cheating because it was only slight.... yeh right... Every team will interpret the rules to enable the best performance within the rules. Just ford have had a couple of high profile "oops we got caught"

anyway, merry xmas

MethodX · 24-12-2007, 11:46 PM

The front guards on the Texaco Sierra's has been pumped and lipped.
In Aus they held up the rule book.
I was happy for P Brock, as i was never a Sierra fan.

gtxb67 · 25-12-2007, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devilcv8

so it's ok to cheat if it's only slightly is it? Similar to the early years of V8 supercars where ford ran lightened body shells and panels, but that wasn't cheating because it was only slight.... yeh right... Every team will interpret the rules to enable the best performance within the rules. Just ford have had a couple of high profile "oops we got caught"

the problem was that they were cleared to race in the previous 8-10 rounds so the eggenberger team considered them legal
the scrutineers knew they were illegal but let them race anyway - basically saying you can win race but we will take it off you
the mercedes team one year before had illegal roof antennas and were told to fix them on friday or go home - the eggenberger team should have been given the same option but the local authorities effectively cheated them by letting them race with guards they knew were illegal

INJECTED_250 · 25-12-2007, 11:25 AM

jump on you tube and theres a few vids of dick johnsons greens tuff on a hot lap (the one into the tree) sounds awesome before the tree

ELGT4me · 25-12-2007, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devilcv8

While the initial finding was illegal fuel it was determined the sierra's had illegal wheel arches.

"After 6 months in court it was found that both Texaco Sierra's passed the fuel analysis but were found guilty of having wider than permitted wheel arches and Peter Brock was awarded his 9th 'win' being the third place getter."

so it's ok to cheat if it's only slightly is it? Similar to the early years of V8 supercars where ford ran lightened body shells and panels, but that wasn't cheating because it was only slight.... yeh right... Every team will interpret the rules to enable the best performance within the rules. Just ford have had a couple of high profile "oops we got caught"

anyway, merry xmas

Do you remember a certain Mr P Brocks Commodore being caught with illegal front strut towers? (They had been cut & shut!!) It was like sectioning an eggshell, remove the middle bit, hey presto lower centre of gravity!!! But they too were only cheating "a little bit"

GK · 25-12-2007, 10:12 PM

I really liked the Sierras, mean cars. They kept the blue oval in the game and that's what mattered to me when Ford got the fuel frights and pulled the V8. Took us years to catch up again.

GK

devilcv8 · 25-12-2007, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELGT4me

Do you remember a certain Mr P Brocks Commodore being caught with illegal front strut towers? (They had been cut & shut!!) It was like sectioning an eggshell, remove the middle bit, hey presto lower centre of gravity!!! But they too were only cheating "a little bit"

I remember the incident, all to do with rule interpretation. same as the Larry bar was illegal but he argued that it was within the rules. The sheet of steel behind the rear seat in the phase 4 (I know it didn't race but Marsden had it installed and was going to argue the point if the scrutineers picked it up).

ELGT4me · 26-12-2007, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devilcv8

I remember the incident, all to do with rule interpretation. same as the Larry bar was illegal but he argued that it was within the rules. The sheet of steel behind the rear seat in the phase 4 (I know it didn't race but Marsden had it installed and was going to argue the point if the scrutineers picked it up).

Yes, I remember Larry saying on national tv "just because it isn't in the rule book, it dosen't mean it can't be done" (I miss Larry!!!) I think the lightweight body shells you are talking about was the result of a 6 cylinder car being presented to Cams for homologation. The 351 car weighs a little bit more than a 6 cylinder car!!! Do you remember when Mr C Lowndes was driving for Hrt & he got caught with an illegal hand throttle , that was set up to improve his launches off the line? We could argue (debate?) about this all day, but in view of the last 2 v8 Supercar champions & how a "team" effort by 4 cars was required to win it, you & I both know which manufacturer gets away with more than the other. Don't even get me started on how a "tyre fitter" from Wyong could purchase the entire Hrt Racing enterprise, & then admits he doesn't own the cars, the personnell or the transporters? (I know they are only cheating a "little bit")

robjh80 · 26-12-2007, 05:45 PM

At the end of the day, Motor Racing is all about getting manufacturers "everyday attainable cars" out of the showrooms and into customers garages, one of the catalysts in achieving this end result is the sport of Motor Racing itself and all the money, glamor and advertising that goes with it.

Even Formula 1 is no exeption to this, if Renault are winning the championship then people conclude that their everyday products are superior to other brands and hence they sell more cars.
Ferrari themselves are commonly referred to as a "Formula 1 team that makes a few other cars on the side."

The Australian Touring Car Championship to this effect is no different, the locally made product is predominantly the Holden Commodore and the Ford Falcon and any dent in their popularity such as not being absolutely and inherently successfull or competitive in the sport itself and being made to look "inferior" in the eyes of the public is not going to be good for the local manufacturers, jobs will be lost and the economy would suffer.......or so they would have us believe.

This is why to this day we only have Commi's and Falcons going round and around and around....."they are in essence a totally and abolutely protected species."

The Sierra's as well as others that have made an entrance over the years into the "Great Race" are of course not locally made and as such any success they have is quickly and ruthlessly going to be squashed so as to not show up the locally made products.

This is ultimately why Sierra's, Jaguar's, BMW's and such like are now not permitted to compete in our locally produced and carefully constructed and construed event........only Commi's and Falcon's for us simple minded folk, dont give the masses any ideas that anybody else's product "may be superior in any way whatsoever."

The Sierra's were simply "far too successful in this protected environment".......it simply would not do!!.....be gone with them said the powerbrokers behind the scenes, banish them from the kingdom forever....."and so they were", and never again since those dark days has any other international product been allowed to show it's wares again and quite possibly..... or should I say "probably" never will...."tis very sad indeed."

ELGT4me · 26-12-2007, 06:37 PM

I suppose not being able to buy a Sierra in Australia, would have nothing to do with having them "banished" from our premiere motorsport event?

4Vman · 26-12-2007, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robjh80

At the end of the day, Motor Racing is all about getting manufacturers "everyday attainable cars" out of the showrooms and into customers garages, one of the catalysts in achieving this end result is the sport of Motor Racing itself and all the money, glamor and advertising that goes with it.

Even Formula 1 is no exeption to this, if Renault are winning the championship then people conclude that their everyday products are superior to other brands and hence they sell more cars.
Ferrari themselves are commonly referred to as a "Formula 1 team that makes a few other cars on the side."

The Australian Touring Car Championship to this effect is no different, the locally made product is predominantly the Holden Commodore and the Ford Falcon and any dent in their popularity such as not being absolutely and inherently successfull or competitive in the sport itself and being made to look "inferior" in the eyes of the public is not going to be good for the local manufacturers, jobs will be lost and the economy would suffer.......or so they would have us believe.

This is why to this day we only have Commi's and Falcons going round and around and around....."they are in essence a totally and abolutely protected species."

The Sierra's as well as others that have made an entrance over the years into the "Great Race" are of course not locally made and as such any success they have is quickly and ruthlessly going to be squashed so as to not show up the locally made products.

This is ultimately why Sierra's, Jaguar's, BMW's and such like are now not permitted to compete in our locally produced and carefully constructed and construed event........only Commi's and Falcon's for us simple minded folk, dont give the masses any ideas that anybody else's product "may be superior in any way whatsoever."

The Sierra's were simply "far too successful in this protected environment".......it simply would not do!!.....be gone with them said the powerbrokers behind the scenes, banish them from the kingdom forever....."and so they were", and never again since those dark days has any other international product been allowed to show it's wares again and quite possibly..... or should I say "probably" never will...."tis very sad indeed."

While you make some good points the sierra raced under Group A rules.. which esentially allowed manufacturers to build homologation specials to race, the Australian car industry couldnt compete on the world stage under group A so new rules and a 2 make series were introduced that the "common aussie man" could identify with.
The current V8SC championship is run under our own set of rules unique to our locally made vehicles for 2 reasons, primarily fan popularity and distantly second to support and promote our locally made products and car industry.

Bossxr8 · 26-12-2007, 09:24 PM

Cheating was rampant across every manufacturer in the Group A days, its just wether you got caught or not that counted. Everyone was pushing the boundaries of legality, its just that the Europeans let that stuff go. Then they came to Bathurst and the Australians tried to follow the rule book, so they got caught.

dom_105 · 26-12-2007, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELGT4me

I think the lightweight body shells you are talking about was the result of a 6 cylinder car being presented to Cams for homologation. The 351 car weighs a little bit more than a 6 cylinder car!!!

I think you are thinking of the XD.

Ford didn't want to come to the party in 1980 when it was time to change over from the XC's and Toranas to the XD's and Commodores, and wouldn't put the XD to CAMS for homologation.

Wayne Draper, who was working for Ford at the time, got together with a business partner and started a car business, selling those Phase 5 XD's that you hear mentioned around here from time to time and, as they were classified as a manufacturer, they took it upon themselves to put that car up to CAMS (which was successful, of course, but they had to tone it down a bit) and therefore got Ford back in the game.

Somebody at Ford told Draper that the lightest XD was the 6-Cyl Taxi pack, so that was the figure he took to CAMS and they accepted it, sight unseen, no questions asked.

devilcv8 · 26-12-2007, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELGT4me

I think the lightweight body shells you are talking about was the result of a 6 cylinder car being presented to Cams for homologation.

I didn't realise that 6 cyclinder falcons had thinner body panels?, as even replacing all hanging panels with factory panels didn't get the cars back to proper weight. IIRC the shortfall was in the order of 70kg

Quote:

We could argue (debate?) about this all day,

yes we could.

Quote:

Don't even get me started on how a "tyre fitter" from Wyong could purchase the entire Hrt Racing enterprise, & then admits he doesn't own the cars, the personnell or the transporters? (I know they are only cheating a "little bit")

Is that anything like the best ford team (at that time) had an extra wire on the loom that "did nothing" or even vodaphone this year running the wrong spec rotors. They were fortunate that they weren't disqualified from all 3 races. (yes I realise that in this case it was an oversight, but then isn't that what these rule interpretations are?)

4Vman · 27-12-2007, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devilcv8

I didn't realise that 6 cyclinder falcons had thinner body panels?, as even replacing all hanging panels with factory panels didn't get the cars back to proper weight. IIRC the shortfall was in the order of 70kg

Is that anything like the best ford team (at that time) had an extra wire on the loom that "did nothing" or even vodaphone this year running the wrong spec rotors. They were fortunate that they weren't disqualified from all 3 races. (yes I realise that in this case it was an oversight, but then isn't that what these rule interpretations are?)

Dick Johnson homologated the XD Falcon at the 6cyl weight.. not the V8 weight.. pretty easy to understand really, its got nothing to do with light weight shells or thinner panels..

protd · 27-12-2007, 08:32 AM

must get me some of those thinner panels

MNM96 · 27-12-2007, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devilcv8

Is that anything like the best ford team (at that time) had an extra wire on the loom that "did nothing" or even vodaphone this year running the wrong spec rotors. They were fortunate that they weren't disqualified from all 3 races. (yes I realise that in this case it was an oversight, but then isn't that what these rule interpretations are?)

The cars where allowed to run as many sensors as they like for testing, but not for the race, SBR got busted.

The incorrect rotors where FPR weren't they?? Extremely dumb on both counts!

Bending the rules is not uncommon, never has been! Lets not get into a Ford/ Holden bun fight, it was the teams who have done most of the fudging, not the Manufacturers!

MNM96 · 27-12-2007, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by protd

must get me some of those thinner panels

Fibreglass is your friend!

:

protd · 27-12-2007, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNM96

Fibreglass is your friend!

:

my fibreglass bonnet and boot are heavier than the factory steel ones

:

nugget378 · 27-12-2007, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by protd

my fibreglass bonnet and boot are heavier than the factory steel ones

:

Lucky that,they would take off and fly if you dont add some weight to them chicken coop's

Would be a big hassle to have to get a pilot's license to go for a drive

Quasi · 27-12-2007, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Oval Mopar Man

While I dont have any pics of dicks XE , The texaco sierras were disqualified for Illegal rear guard modifications. Appperently they were slightly pumped for clearance or something ! sounds like another case of "Oh my, holden lost again, lets pic something on the fords and cheat them out off a win ! Brocky came 3rd in his Mobil commodore so he was given the win! Some looser tried to give me heaps at the boozer on base later that night , got angry after I let him know that I saw 2 fords win and he cant do anything about that , so he tried to thump me . That was fine with me so I smashed him a few times and kicked his *** out of the boozer!

Yes, from memory it was uncle Tom who lodged the initial protest.

He actually picked on all the sierra teams, including DJR, and the list included virtually everything on the cars, including diff gearing. A channel 7 reporter actually said to Walkinshaw (after he stated what was in the protest) "That's basically everything on the Sierras'....and Tom responded "Oh, there's a few bits left".

Mind you the easiest way to look at it is that the Texaco Ford Sierras were disqualified because they were in front of Brock

devilcv8 · 27-12-2007, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNM96

The incorrect rotors where FPR weren't they?? Extremely dumb on both counts!

I thought it was Whincup's car at Eastern Creek?

Quote:

Bending the rules is not uncommon, never has been! Lets not get into a Ford/ Holden bun fight, it was the teams who have done most of the fudging, not the Manufacturers!

Agreed. Every team to a degree will build there car and run it to the best of their ability, and to the best interpretation of the rules. Some teams will spend a lot of time/money on working out what the rules allow and either the rules get changed or everyone starts doing it. Look at the wheel nuts being captive in the wheel. It wan't mentioned in the rules, someone (I think 888 were the first ones to run it) started having the nuts captive in the wheels which allowed faster pitstops. now everyone does it. DJ with his XE?, rules stated original mount points had to be used so he fabricated rear locating arms that used the original mounts (but couldn't move) and pivoted at a better point for the rear suspension geometry.

ELGT4me · 27-12-2007, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Dick Johnson homologated the XD Falcon at the 6cyl weight.. not the V8 weight.. pretty easy to understand really, its got nothing to do with light weight shells or thinner panels..

I could be wrong but I thought Mr Murray Carter did the homologation!!!

ELGT4me · 27-12-2007, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devilcv8

I didn't realise that 6 cyclinder falcons had thinner body panels?, as even replacing all hanging panels with factory panels didn't get the cars back to proper weight. IIRC the shortfall was in the order of 70kg

yes we could.

Is that anything like the best ford team (at that time) had an extra wire on the loom that "did nothing" or even vodaphone this year running the wrong spec rotors. They were fortunate that they weren't disqualified from all 3 races. (yes I realise that in this case it was an oversight, but then isn't that what these rule interpretations are?)

Yes you are, & quite correct & then Mr Skaife ( the bloke who only owned 2 licences ,no team, no cars, no crew.)went on national tv condemning SBR who were not the "factory" team & then got caught with an illegal wiring harness himself!!! Just imagine the official "factory" team gets caught cheating. What penalty was "SNOZZ" imposed with?