New Clutch $1430 from Ford: rip off?

[Fiesta_Man69]

At 64K the clutch on my 2010 Ws is almost shot.

So I rung Cumberland Ford(Blacktown). Supplied and fitted they want $1430. Aftermarket (ie independent) can do it for less than half the cost. Does Ford believe it's customers are that stupid?

This follows my brake rotors failing at 40K. I replaced these aftermarket at less than half Fords cost for a superior product.

As a comparison I have owned a Mirage (similar weight, power etc). The rotors were replaced at 150K. I bought the car with 10K on the clock, sold it with just over 200K and never replaced the clutch...

As a comparison I had a r32gtr and replaced it's clutch for $700, where it did track days and felt strong as 80K later when it was sold to purchase property.

I have owned over a dozen cars and never had brake discs and clutches fail under 100K.

So while the Fiesta is (at the moment) identically priced to the 2 in driveaway base model prices, the ongoing maintenance costs are ridiculous for what is essentially a city runabout car.

Is the $1430 Ford wants insulting or justified? Is 64K way too soon for a clutch to fail? (I believe it is).

I don't sit in bumper to bumper traffic. I drive 50km a day, from Penrith thru Shanes Park to Blacktown, on rural roads, 50% of the trip at 80kmh... And have done since new, which makes the failure all the more annoying.

[FOCUSonTHIS]

When I had my LR Focus, the clutch was gone after 70,000km. I replaced the pressure plate and clutch, also the thrust bearing at a cost of $700 for parts alone and that is with Ford staff discount. So it just isn't the Fiesta.

You have to remember labour costs as well to replace the clutch and machine the flywheel, which I assume the dealer will charge at a premium price.

I have just recently replaced the clutch in my AU and that cost me $900, so I think your just paying the premium for the Ford dealer to change it.

Remember the dealer sets the price of labour not Ford.

I just replaced the clutch

[vhcbm]

Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69

Is the $1430 Ford wants insulting or justified? Is 64K way too soon for a clutch to fail? (I believe it is).

Yea I believe it is. Unfortunately it's one thing you can't claim under warranty (guessing yours still is as it's a 2010 model)

Maybe it's worth looking at the cheaper option

[Fez WQ]

What have you done to it .... These clutches usually last very well
.
I have a brother in Law who had is camry clutch go at 80,000km cost him almost $3,000 dont you love dealers pricing

My cars has done the same KMs and I have no probs
You must drive in extreme conditions ..... I drive my car hard and the only thing that's worn out is the tyres.... Hope the cops don't look LOL

[Franco Cozzo]

Hell no, find an aftermarket solution and take it to your trusted local mechanic. I never go back to the dealership for anything unless its a warranty claim.

[Fiesta_Man69]

Originally Posted by Fez WQ

What have you done to it .... These clutches usually last very well
.
I have a brother in Law who had is camry clutch go at 80,000km cost him almost $3,000 dont you love dealers pricing

My cars has done the same KMs and I have no probs
You must drive in extreme conditions ..... I drive my car hard and the only thing that's worn out is the tyres.... Hope the cops don't look LOL

No track days. No riding the clutch in traffic. It's a Fez so obviously no drag aways from the lights. It's done the Wisemans Ferry, Bells run, but nothing stupid, again it's a Fez, not a sports car. Like I said I had a Mirage and got almost 200K from it, and the gtr saw serious track work, no issues. It's surprising, but disappointing. If it was an XR6 turbo or a 4WD towing a boat, sure it's understandable, but a 90kW 1000kg city run about? Hopefully it's an isolated incident. But what Ford thinks it can gouge from it's customers (when aftermarket can go 60% cheaper) is insulting.

[greenfoam]

I don't know how badly you drive that thing but I shift often and hard up and down the gears all day. I practically never use the brakes and the clutch is still perfect at nearly 150,000ks. I usually can match the revs within a couple hundred rpm on the shifts which must help with clutch life. I fully expect it to easily last 200,000ks as it should. I'm expecting the brakes to also last nearly that long and that's with my wife driving just as much as I do and she's hard on brakes (and clutch) :S

The mark up on European Ford parts at Ford Australia is robbery. Remember the wheels are $800 each here and about $200 in the UK. I bet you can get a clutch dirt cheap out of England, even better if you put it in yourself.

Here's a couple options http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Purpleline...ht_1886wt_1062

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Borg-Beck-...ht_1914wt_1062

[Fiesta God]

I wouldn't bother with a genuine Ford one anyway ... chances are that a quality aftermarket product will last you longer ...

Out of interest was your car "brand" new, or a demo? Some of the wear & tear that can be done to clutches & brakes on demo models at dealerships is pretty horrifying ... even in as little as 1000kms ...

[Fiesta_Man69]

No. Delivered with 28kms on clock... Plus a fair bit of rust lol, see other thread for that one...

[vhcbm]

Originally Posted by greenfoam

I don't know how badly you drive that thing but I shift often and hard up and down the gears all day. I practically never use the brakes and the clutch is still perfect at nearly 150,000ks. I usually can match the revs within a couple hundred rpm on the shifts which must help with clutch life. I fully expect it to easily last 200,000ks as it should. I'm expecting the brakes to also last nearly that long and that's with my wife driving just as much as I do and she's hard on brakes (and clutch) :S

The mark up on European Ford parts at Ford Australia is robbery. Remember the wheels are $800 each here and about $200 in the UK. I bet you can get a clutch dirt cheap out of England, even better if you put it in yourself.

Here's a couple options http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Purpleline...ht_1886wt_1062

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Borg-Beck-...ht_1914wt_1062

Also maybe send a message to fordparts uk and see how much they can quote you. http://www.fordpartsuk.com/

[Fiestaman]

Clutch should last a lot longer than yours. Had a Festiva that did 160,000kms with 2 learners driving it and sold it with original clutch.

As for brake rotors Ford is not the only one to have problem parts. My other car, a Honda, has warped rotors at 20,000kms. Not replaceable under guarantee because "it's a wear and tear item" Really, after 20,000kms of easy driving?? Scratch Honda from my list of new car purchases in future.

[greenfoam]

Originally Posted by Fiesta God

I wouldn't bother with a genuine Ford one anyway ... chances are that a quality aftermarket product will last you longer ...

Out of interest was your car "brand" new, or a demo? Some of the wear & tear that can be done to clutches & brakes on demo models at dealerships is pretty horrifying ... even in as little as 1000kms ...

Ours only had 6 km on it or something? But the clutch was getting worked hard enough during at times during it's first day in life to smell a bit when I was teaching my wife how to drive a manual

It's first day was for sure it's hardest, I guess if you had 50 girls that can't drive a manual test driving the car before you buy it then that could add a lot of wear to the car

[tweeked]

I have found the small euros, and not just Ford but also the girlfriends Astra seem to prefer Cheese to Cast iron for making discs.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by Fiestaman

Clutch should last a lot longer than yours. Had a Festiva that did 160,000kms with 2 learners driving it and sold it with original clutch.

As for brake rotors Ford is not the only one to have problem parts. My other car, a Honda, has warped rotors at 20,000kms. Not replaceable under guarantee because "it's a wear and tear item" Really, after 20,000kms of easy driving?? Scratch Honda from my list of new car purchases in future.

I had an accident in my Festiva at 205,000km. It got written off :(

Original clutch, original front rotors, maintenance over that period included replacing the radiator hoses, brake pads / shoes / rear berrings and an alternator at 190k.... Clutch was still nice and light, like new. Perhaps because I serviced the whole thing correctly? (including the timing belt at 200k... ).....

Bought 2 other Festivas after that, half the kays, clutch was rock hard....

If a clutch has only lasted that amount of time could it have been adjusted / set incorrectly??

Yes... don't let Ford fix it for that much...

Also... don't assume for a second that Ford charge $110 or there abouts per hr for labour.. the true rate is more like $200 an hr. Which is why a local mechanic can do it for half the price.

[WILDB]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Also... don't assume for a second that Ford charge $110 or there abouts per hr for labour.. the true rate is more like $200 an hr. Which is why a local mechanic can do it for half the price.

True rate?

What some people don't get is that some newer cars (ironically the worst I've seen are small FWD cars) are alot harder to work on that older vehicles. Sure, an older car might have cost $750 for a new clutch - think about this, what has to be removed to get the gearbox out? Is it a subframe out job? How many hours do you think it takes to carry out a clutch replacement on one of these?

[greenfoam]

Pretty sure taking the gearbox out on the Fiesta is a straight forward job. If the day comes where I have to replace the clutch before the Fiesta ST is released I'd be doing it myself

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by WILDB

True rate?

What some people don't get is that some newer cars (ironically the worst I've seen are small FWD cars) are alot harder to work on that older vehicles. Sure, an older car might have cost $750 for a new clutch - think about this, what has to be removed to get the gearbox out? Is it a subframe out job? How many hours do you think it takes to carry out a clutch replacement on one of these?

Yes.... $200. Grab your log book, tell us what is done at a service, the time Ford says it should take, then compare it to what is charged under the 'capped price' program.

Put it in your reply. I'll be curious to see how you cost the parts as well.

Perhaps then you will 'get it'.....

Also, perhaps you can look up the cost of a clutch and hrs involved to do the job on a Fiesta while your at it.

[greenfoam]

It's about 1.5 hours labour for an oil change at the Ford dealer which takes about 15 minutes even without a hoist

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by greenfoam

It's about 1.5 hours labour for an oil change at the Ford dealer which takes about 15 minutes even without a hoist

My logbook says a minor service (LV Focus Diesel) takes 1hr 12 minutes. In that service I get a change of oil, a filter and some other fluid 'top up's' if needed. As well as a bunch of 'inspections'....

Capped price $295......

Of course they don't charge $200 an hr.... Unless 6L of oil and a filter costs Ford $165????

I got some work done on my Festiva. Engine swaps (2x out, 1x in, $750), new clutch ($220), coolant ($80), reco gearbox on exchange ($350) and aircon re-gas ($100) for around $1500... no, Ford didn't do it.... Wonder what the price would have been if they did??

[greenfoam]

I used to bring my own oil and just ask for the oil change (when it was under warranty) and it would cost $170. All they do is change the oil and top up the washer bottle. Most of the people working on your car at times like this are first year 15 year old apprentices that aren't as competent mechanics as most average grown men anyway

[fonfe]

I do a fiesta clutch change in about 3-4 hours total on an average day providing nothing is seized.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by WILDB

True rate?

What some people don't get is that some newer cars (ironically the worst I've seen are small FWD cars) are alot harder to work on that older vehicles. Sure, an older car might have cost $750 for a new clutch - think about this, what has to be removed to get the gearbox out? Is it a subframe out job? How many hours do you think it takes to carry out a clutch replacement on one of these?

They are a massive pain in the *** job on new small cars, but it sure as hell doesn't take an hour to do a minor service on a car.

When I was an apprentice at a Honda dealership, we where knocking out minor services in 13 minutes with 2 people working on the car and thats rotating wheels, tyre pressures, checking tyre condition checking brake pads, checking under the car for leaks/damage, oil/filter change and fluid topups.

[fonfe]

An hour for a minor service is very normal. Do not forget that included in that hour is a dtc check, driving the car into the workshop, raising it on a hoist where various checks like measuring disc thickness, brake fluid boiling point, antifreeze strength, all suspension& steering bushes and joints, wheel bearing play, tread depths, tyre pressures just to name a few are carried out. THEN any service replacement parts are replaced.
Having an apprentice carry out a service and there be 2 of them doing it together in 13mins is far too quick considering what should be checked and recorded in a service. That's only leaving 5 mins to drive the car in and out & raising it on the hoist, 1 min to check all the lights, 7 mins to swap wheels round and retorque the nuts, 3 to check levels and top them up, 5 mins for the oil and filter, 3mins for tyre pressures, 2mins for tread depths......that's your 26 mins at 13 mins each gone...where's the dtc check, road test, bushes check, brakes check, boiling point check just to name a few gone? Glad that wasn't my car that was just serviced!

Yes fwd vehicles are tighter to work in compared to an older rwd car but It depends on what your used to working on. I started out on range rovers where the body must be spilt from the chassis just to change a turbo or a head gasket due to space so when I went over to ford it was a lot easier BUT having your clutch done at a main dealer will always be an expensive route, even though on the fiesta they are very simple to do. You may find that the parts bill plays quite a big part in the price as it needs 2 inner cv boots, lower ball joint pinch bolts and nuts, clutch kit, 1l brake fluid, 1can of brake cleaner and 2 hub nuts (from off the top of my head) to do the job as per ford workshop procedure

[el_wagon]

apprentice has to drive to pick up McDonalds in your car = 10 mins
apprentice has to clean rubber off rear guards after doing burnout in McDonalds drive thru = 5 mins
apprentice has to clean up mess from tipped over meal off your seat = 5 mins
apprentice has to search your car for any loose change they can steal = 5 mins
hoist your car up on the hoist and drain oil = 5 mins
have previously mentioned McDonalds = 5 mins
change filter = 5 mins
refill oil = 5 mins
refit sump plug and refill oil again (and charge for 10 litres of oil) = 5 mins
lower vehicle off hoist and take for a test burnout, err, I mean test drive = 10 mins
That's one hour lol

[svo supporter]

[QUOTE=Yellow_Festiva]
Of course they don't charge $200 an hr.... QUOTE]


Have you stopped to think of all the overheads involved in the running of a large dealership?

You've got massive rates on the sites, because they're located in prime sites....Then you've got massive work cover costs (or what ever they're called interstate). Comes with the territory of running a mechanical workshop. You've got massive maintenance costs involved in the up keep of the outside of premises. Not to mention the water rates.

Then we start of wages for office staff, the car cleaners etc etc. Do I continue?

Yeah, of course dealers cost more, when compared to Mr small businessman, because Mr small businessman doesn't have the massive overheads that large dealerships have to contend with.

Whilst I wouldn't pay the costs suggested by you, having work done at a dealership, you've still got to look at the larger picture, before complaining about their pricing. ie, why it's so dear.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Have you stopped to think of all the overheads involved in the running of a large dealership?

You've got massive rates on the sites, because they're located in prime sites....Then you've got massive work cover costs (or what ever they're called interstate). Comes with the territory of running a mechanical workshop. You've got massive maintenance costs involved in the up keep of the outside of premises. Not to mention the water rates.

Then we start of wages for office staff, the car cleaners etc etc. Do I continue?

Yeah, of course dealers cost more, when compared to Mr small businessman, because Mr small businessman doesn't have the massive overheads that large dealerships have to contend with.

Whilst I wouldn't pay the costs suggested by you, having work done at a dealership, you've still got to look at the larger picture, before complaining about their pricing. ie, why it's so dear.

I know full well what it costs to run a small business, I have my own as does most of the people in my family. But dont' try the BS line with me that the 'extras' you quote above justify an extra $180 an hr... from what I hear even the top mechanic in a service department will be on circa $20an hr......

REMEMBER... I'm not making the rate up. I'm going by the official Ford documents and website for prices and times.. And if Ford claim that they are charging $110ph for labour that very much contradicts their own pricing structure perhaps they have bigger things to worry about.

Everyone knows dealer profits are in servicing... what else would you expect but to inflate prices???

There was a thread in the Pub recently about $110 an hr charged by Ford, and how that was seen as over the top by many.

It seems a justification for the overcharging is that fact they are a 'big business'... high overheads, lots of workers etc etc etc... hang on, isn't this a reason why costs per hr should be actually lower?? Why is a large meal at McDonalds $10 yet a similar meal at a take away shop the same or more?? Why is the model different when we are talking about cars??

Seems the service side of things is done much like a production line as well... must make it more costly doing it that way???

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by fonfe

An hour for a minor service is very normal. Do not forget that included in that hour is a dtc check, driving the car into the workshop, raising it on a hoist where various checks like measuring disc thickness, brake fluid boiling point, antifreeze strength, all suspension& steering bushes and joints, wheel bearing play, tread depths, tyre pressures just to name a few are carried out. THEN any service replacement parts are replaced.
Having an apprentice carry out a service and there be 2 of them doing it together in 13mins is far too quick considering what should be checked and recorded in a service. That's only leaving 5 mins to drive the car in and out & raising it on the hoist, 1 min to check all the lights, 7 mins to swap wheels round and retorque the nuts, 3 to check levels and top them up, 5 mins for the oil and filter, 3mins for tyre pressures, 2mins for tread depths......that's your 26 mins at 13 mins each gone...where's the dtc check, road test, bushes check, brakes check, boiling point check just to name a few gone? Glad that wasn't my car that was just serviced!

Yes fwd vehicles are tighter to work in compared to an older rwd car but It depends on what your used to working on. I started out on range rovers where the body must be spilt from the chassis just to change a turbo or a head gasket due to space so when I went over to ford it was a lot easier BUT having your clutch done at a main dealer will always be an expensive route, even though on the fiesta they are very simple to do. You may find that the parts bill plays quite a big part in the price as it needs 2 inner cv boots, lower ball joint pinch bolts and nuts, clutch kit, 1l brake fluid, 1can of brake cleaner and 2 hub nuts (from off the top of my head) to do the job as per ford workshop procedure

We wouldn't do DTC checks if there is no engine light present, you don't measure disc thickness, only if you went to change pads you check it. You just look at the pad with the wheel off on one side of the car for front/rear, we didn't bother with fluid boiling point check etc, you just replace it when the book says so, same with coolant, leave it alone unless its up for replacement, wheel bearing play you push on the wheel side to side to see if it has excessive play etc.

As I said, most places wouldn't even bother doing all that, the only time I've had that level of service is from my local mechanic.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by fonfe

I do a fiesta clutch change in about 3-4 hours total on an average day providing nothing is seized.

Thanks for that. What is the rough trade price on the parts needed if you don't mind as well?

[fonfe]

If you have your ford serviced at a ford main dealer there is a thing called a vehicle health check sheet which should be filled out everytime a vehicle goes into the Worksop and there is a section for brake fluid boiling point, brake disc thickness and antifreeze strength. The pads should also be checked on both sides of the disc due to the inner pad wearing more than the outer and it should be on all 4 sides or 2 and the shoes if the car has rear drums in case of a sticking caliber which would cause much heavier wear on that brake setup.
Brake fluid is changed every 2 years on euro spec fords as per specification but is still checked incase the fluid has absorbed more moisture than usual.

Yellow festivia you will have to ring us as I do not handle the pricing side of things for the workshop as I'm the technician. Ask to speak to Michael and ask him to quote you on OEM parts and he can do you a quote.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by fonfe

If you have your ford serviced at a ford main dealer there is a thing called a vehicle health check sheet which should be filled out everytime a vehicle goes into the Worksop and there is a section for brake fluid boiling point, brake disc thickness and antifreeze strength. The pads should also be checked on both sides of the disc due to the inner pad wearing more than the outer and it should be on all 4 sides or 2 and the shoes if the car has rear drums in case of a sticking caliber which would cause much heavier wear on that brake setup.
Brake fluid is changed every 2 years on euro spec fords as per specification but is still checked incase the fluid has absorbed more moisture than usual.

Yellow festivia you will have to ring us as I do not handle the pricing side of things for the workshop as I'm the technician. Ask to speak to Michael and ask him to quote you on OEM parts and he can do you a quote.

You guys are much more strict than we ever where at Honda then, we never went that indepth on our servicing, just tried to get them in and out as fast as we could.