Dodgy Ford Dealer........

[sly_ba]

Hey all,

I just thought I would share with you all my opinions about a ford dealer I went to today. I was keen on purchasing a BA Mk II XR8 from SAM GOULD FORD in Lilydale. If only I had known what I was in for I would never had made the trip down there (over an hour drive!!). Apparantly my BF XR6 depriciated $5000 in 10 minutes.

According to SAM GOULD FORD the value of your car (in regards to trading in) depends on what you wish to purchase.... When I enquired about another vehicle (apart from the XR8) in regards to trading in I was told my car was worth $29,000 (my car has very low kays and lots of interior options). When I went to trade in on the XR8 all of a sudden my car is only worth $24,000 trade in!! Now, my car is either worth $29,000 or it is not!! How can any person rationally explain how my car just lost $5,000 in value from wanting to trade in on one car to the next? I was then informed that I could get $29,000 trade in on mine but the XR8 would go up in price $5,000 to accomodate for the gap. Why should the value of my car change depending on what I wish to purchase? The sales man told me my car was only worth $24,000 yet could not explain why BA Mk I xr6's with 100,000 kays and plain interior were on the lot for $26,000 (my car has only done 35,000 kays and is 12 months old, it has a six speed auto and partial leather interior)!!

After arguing with the sales people for about half an hour I told them to stick it where the sun does not shine and would never be returning nor would I recommend any people go there. He was lucky I left while he still had all of his teeth still in his face.

In short, SAM GOULD FORD in Lilydale would have to be the worst Ford dealer I have ever dealt with. Customer service was **** poor and the manor in which they trade is both unreasonable, unrealistic and just plain disgusting really. People who are looking to purchase or trade in please stay away from SAM GOULD FORD or at least be warned......they are a bunch of &*%$heads....

Just my 20 cents.. :

[LTDHO]

Umm, that is fact and has nothing to do with the dealer and you are not in a position to put the dealer down because of a fact you were not aware of. The fastest thing to depreiciate is a brand new car, once plates are screwed on value drops instantly. This is a commonly known fact and why most people prefer used or demos as they have already been through it.

[Laminge]

A bit harsh I would have to say, obviously the sales man could have explained things a bit more, but creative bookwork would have been used in both scenarios.

Take you car to another non ford dealership and see what your trade in would be, mind you they are mainly purchased from a unique third party anyhows.

[sly_ba]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

Umm, that is fact and has nothing to do with the dealer and you are not in a position to put the dealer down because of a fact you were not aware of. The fastest thing to depreiciate is a brand new car, once plates are screwed on value drops instantly. This is a commonly known fact and why most people prefer used or demos as they have already been through it.

The value of my car should not have changed depending on what I wished to trade it in on. The car is worth ONE figure or amount, not three depending on what I wish to trade the car in on. I am sorry but the way I was treated was bull ****. Maybe if you were there you might understand, until then I was the one treated poorly and I can put the dealer down all I want to due to the fact that I was a potential customer...... Dont get me wrong you are entitled to your own opinion

[sly_ba]

Originally Posted by Laminge

A bit harsh I would have to say, obviously the sales man could have explained things a bit more, but creative bookwork would have been used in both scenarios.

Take you car to another non ford dealership and see what your trade in would be, mind you they are mainly purchased from a unique third party anyhows.

Yeah I have been quoted $26,000 trade in on a similar car to the one I was looking at today at a hyundai dealer so they might get my business, the service was a DAMN site better to.

[Laminge]

Dont purchase a car with the opening line for a trade in.

Find the car you like, negotiate the price on that car, then work on the principal of trade in value of max 26k.

I dont thing you will get more than 24k to tell you the truth, but remember that trade in=screw you over as much as they can.

Try selling the car privately for 26k and use cash as a bargaining power.

This is my experience from the last 5 trade ins in the last 5 years.

[jdg]

I would definitely recommend you have a go at selling your car first. It’s a bit of a hassle but what's a dealer going to do with a trade? It will just be sitting in their yard with a detail and a couple of thousand $$$ slapped on to pay their margins. As Laminge mentioned, you could use the cash as bargaining power as well.

[sly_ba]

Originally Posted by Laminge

Dont purchase a car with the opening line for a trade in.

Find the car you like, negotiate the price on that car, then work on the principal of trade in value of max 26k.

I dont thing you will get more than 24k to tell you the truth, but remember that trade in=screw you over as much as they can.

Try selling the car privately for 26k and use cash as a bargaining power.

This is my experience from the last 5 trade ins in the last 5 years.

Yeah selling privatly was always going to be the best option for me money wise. Dont get me wrong, if $24,000 was all the car was worth to them then thats what I should have been told in the first place. My mine gripe is that the car should not have different values depending on what I wish to trade it in on.....

[jdg]

Have you tried Redbook?

I don't think a BF Xr6 with the 6speed auto and i-design interior should be worth 24k...a bit more.

This is what the valuation guide or carsales.com.au says...

Average Private Price+ $29,100 - $34,100
Trade In Price Guide+ $23,700 - $26,100
Average km+ 18000 - 22000
Price When New (RRP)+ $41,210

[sly_ba]

Originally Posted by jdg

Have you tried Redbook?

I don't think a BF Xr6 with the 6speed auto and i-design interior should be worth 24k...a bit more.

This is what the valuation guide or carsales.com.au says...

Average Private Price+ $29,100 - $34,100
Trade In Price Guide+ $23,700 - $26,100
Average km+ 18000 - 22000
Price When New (RRP)+ $41,210

Agreed. If I had of traded in my BF XR6 for the $24,000 that they wanted I would almost guarentee it would be on the lot the next day for about $30,000 or more......

[Brent]

Mate, its been long known that you'll cop a 15-30% hit in the pocket on the value of your 'trade in' by electing to do just that....trade it in. Its the cost of convenience. The cost of saying "Stuff it, couldn't be bothered selling it privately, so I'll trade it."

No roadworthies, no ads in the paper, no waiting for the phone to call & having dodgy clowns & tyre kickers waste your time, or as worse, waiting for people who say they want to see your car only to never turn up. Instead, you drive into the dealership, agree a price, throw 'em the keys and walk away in your new car. Selling its then their problem. Is it worth it? Depends on your perception of value.

At each dealership different cars they have in their yard will most likely owe the caryard differing amounts, hence, your choice of new car will affect the overall equation of what they make from the deal when its all done & dusted. They're in the game to make money. They don't want a car that owes them $29k when they can only sell it for $27k. As mentioned by Laminge, best way is to lock in the price of the car you're buying first. That way, you lock down one side of the equation.

If its any consolation, when I bought my BF GT I traded in a Vectra. Was 5 years old but only 40,000kms on it. However, it had the odd scrape on it which would have inhibited its private sale attractiveness. Also, I would have had to give it a roadworthy, it had noisy front suspension bushes, and then there was the whole saga of trying to privately sell what was a day to day, joe-average car. Too fricken hard. Reckon it may have cost me about $2k to sell if I'd fixed all those things up prior to sale. So, I took what I estimate to be about $4-5k less than its private sale value, and I threw then the keys and drove away in the brand new GT, which I might add, I got for a very handsome price.

You win some, you lose some. Do I regret it? Nup. The price of business mate. If it really irks you, have a tilt at selling it privately.

Brent.

[sly_ba]

Originally Posted by Brent

Mate, its been long known that you'll cop a 15-30% hit in the pocket on the value of your 'trade in' by electing to do just that....trade it in. Its the cost of convenience. The cost of saying "Stuff it, couldn't be bothered selling it privately, so I'll trade it."

No roadworthies, no ads in the paper, no waiting for the phone to call & having dodgy clowns & tyre kickers waste your time, or as worse, waiting for people who say they want to see your car only to never turn up. Instead, you drive into the dealership, agree a price, throw 'em the keys and walk away in your new car. Selling its then their problem. Is it worth it? Depends on your perception of value.

At each dealership different cars they have in their yard will most likely owe the caryard differing amounts, hence, your choice of new car will affect the overall equation of what they make from the deal when its all done & dusted. They're in the game to make money. They don't want a car that owes them $29k when they can only sell it for $27k. As mentioned by Laminge, best way is to lock in the price of the car you're buying first. That way, you lock down one side of the equation.

If its any consolation, when I bought my BF GT I traded in a Vectra. Was 5 years old but only 40,000kms on it. However, it had the odd scrape on it which would have inhibited its private sale attractiveness. Also, I would have had to give it a roadworthy, it had noisy front suspension bushes, and then there was the whole saga of trying to privately sell what was a day to day, joe-average car. Too fricken hard. Reckon it may have cost me about $2k to sell if I'd fixed all those things up prior to sale. So, I took what I estimate to be about $4-5k less than its private sale value, and I threw then the keys and drove away in the brand new GT, which I might add, I got for a very handsome price.

You win some, you lose some. Do I regret it? Nup. The price of business mate. If it really irks you, have a tilt at selling it privately.

Brent.

I agree with what you have to say here. Except for where you write the following:

"At each dealership different cars they have in their yard will most likely owe the caryard differing amounts, hence, your choice of new car will affect the overall equation of what they make from the deal when its all done & dusted."

The fact that cars in the yard owe the dealer different amounts should be irrelevant as to what the value of my car is. The value of my car does not change according to what the cars in the yard owe the dealer. My car should have one dollar value and this should not be a variable depending on what car I wish to trade it in on. I do agree however that selling privatly is the way to go. I just thought I would give the car yards a go before I went down that road again.

Congrats on buying the GT mate, I bet she goes a bit better than the Vectra....

Cheers

[pb02]

At least they are giving you figures. I went to two different Toyota dealers this week looking at Hilux's. Neither would even give me a trade in figure or any quotes unless I was prepared to sign up on the day!!!

[42.57lb]

Originally Posted by SLY_AU3

Hey all,

I just thought I would share with you all my opinions about a ford dealer I went to today. I was keen on purchasing a BA Mk II XR8 from SAM GOULD FORD in Lilydale. If only I had known what I was in for I would never had made the trip down there (over an hour drive!!). Apparantly my BF XR6 depriciated $5000 in 10 minutes.

According to SAM GOULD FORD the value of your car (in regards to trading in) depends on what you wish to purchase.... When I enquired about another vehicle (apart from the XR8) in regards to trading in I was told my car was worth $29,000 (my car has very low kays and lots of interior options). When I went to trade in on the XR8 all of a sudden my car is only worth $24,000 trade in!! Now, my car is either worth $29,000 or it is not!! How can any person rationally explain how my car just lost $5,000 in value from wanting to trade in on one car to the next? I was then informed that I could get $29,000 trade in on mine but the XR8 would go up in price $5,000 to accomodate for the gap. Why should the value of my car change depending on what I wish to purchase? The sales man told me my car was only worth $24,000 yet could not explain why BA Mk I xr6's with 100,000 kays and plain interior were on the lot for $26,000 (my car has only done 35,000 kays and is 12 months old, it has a six speed auto and partial leather interior)!!

After arguing with the sales people for about half an hour I told them to stick it where the sun does not shine and would never be returning nor would I recommend any people go there. He was lucky I left while he still had all of his teeth still in his face.

In short, SAM GOULD FORD in Lilydale would have to be the worst Ford dealer I have ever dealt with. Customer service was **** poor and the manor in which they trade is both unreasonable, unrealistic and just plain disgusting really. People who are looking to purchase or trade in please stay away from SAM GOULD FORD or at least be warned......they are a bunch of &*%$heads....

Just my 20 cents.. :

I'm not an expert on the matter, but seeing as we're all about opinions here, I'll give you mine.

I think it is likely that the dealer has to make a certain amount of profit on his cars. As such the first car you had a trade-in price quoted against was likely to be a "good deal" for the dealer. BUT the XR8 on the other hand was not quite as attractive for him, in terms of net profit. Therefore to recoup the $5k he was going to either put up the price, or give you less trade.

My opinion on the matter is sales people often have the idiology that they are serving their needs, not that of the customer. Which is ironic considering that they are relying on the customer for their income.

But no one wants to loose out on 5k, not you, not me, and most definitely NOT the dealer.

good luck with the car hunting!

[sly_ba]

Originally Posted by pb02

At least they are giving you figures. I went to two different Toyota dealers this week looking at Hilux's. Neither would even give me a trade in figure or any quotes unless I was prepared to sign up on the day!!!

Thats pretty rough on the dealers part isn't it mate......

[LTDHO]

Originally Posted by SLY_AU3

The fact that cars in the yard owe the dealer different amounts should be irrelevant as to what the value of my car is. The value of my car does not change according to what the cars in the yard owe the dealer. My car should have one dollar value and this should not be a variable depending on what car I wish to trade it in on. I do agree however that selling privatly is the way to go. I just thought I would give the car yards a go before I went down that road again.

They don't pay you what the car is worth, that's what you are missing. It's what they want to pay, if they have too many used cars then they will not pay alot for another, this is another trick, find the car you want in a dealer that hasn't got any of the car you have to traid in or more space than cars. They will give you more for the trade in or offer you more accessories.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by SLY_AU3

I agree with what you have to say here. Except for where you write the following:

"At each dealership different cars they have in their yard will most likely owe the caryard differing amounts, hence, your choice of new car will affect the overall equation of what they make from the deal when its all done & dusted."

The fact that cars in the yard owe the dealer different amounts should be irrelevant as to what the value of my car is. The value of my car does not change according to what the cars in the yard owe the dealer.

Well yeah, sort of. Without wanting to go all philosophical here, the term "worth" or "value" is very subjective. Its like a house. If it went to auction today and sold for $300k, then its worth $300k. If it went a week later because there was a different bidder and it went for $400k, then what's its value? $300 or $400k? Market value is what somebody is prepared to pay for it.

Accordingly, those Red Book values are simply guides as to average value. Its a statistical average taken across multiple trade in and private sale prices. Some would have been higher than redbook. Some lower. You then end up with an "average range".

No matter what the Red Book or any other book says, a dealer will rarely enter into a deal that ends in a net loss for them by the time they've factored the new car price and trade in price. They don't HAVE to offer you anything. its their prerogative, just as its yours to walk away.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I feel for you mate. I hate car dealerships and cheesy sales tactics. Makes my skin crawl. However, its a very unemotive, mathematical transaction for those guys. You could have looked after your cherished trade-in like it was your 1st born, but those guys don't give a stuff.........they just look at it as a number. A lump of metal that they have to turn over as fast as possible into cash. Straight & simple.

Your best bargaining tool is your ability to walk away if you're prepared to sell it privately.

PS. Yep, the GT is a beauty!!!!!!

[5tumpy]

Originally Posted by SLY_AU3

The fact that cars in the yard owe the dealer different amounts should be irrelevant as to what the value of my car is. The value of my car does not change according to what the cars in the yard owe the dealer. My car should have one dollar value and this should not be a variable depending on what car I wish to trade it in on.

Mate you're dreaming if that's what you actually think. Generally speaking, what your car is actually worth will have little to no bearing on the value of your trade-in. You will not get for your car any more than what they can afford to lose on the one you are buying. Based on those redbook figures:

Average Private Price+ $29,100 - $34,100
Trade In Price Guide+ $23,700 - $26,100
Average km+ 18000 - 22000
Price When New (RRP)+ $41,210

Your car has higher than average k's and they still offered you $3000 more than the highest average trade-in price. Unfortunately in the real world, idealism isn't worth a pinch of the proverbial mate, sounds to me like both prices for your car were fair....

[XF460]

For the record I had a terrible experience when buying my TE50 from a Ford Dealer and don’t doubt for a second that the sales staff probably treated you with little respect/courteously. I’m sure you wouldn’t be so upset about it all right now if they had taken the time to explain their point of view in a nicer way. You are obviously not angry over nothing. But below is my “theory” on maybe why the dealer dropped the trade-in value offer.

Contrary to the figures quoted by JDG above, the carsales redbook trade-in value (for a BF XR6, with six speed and 40,000kms) is coming up for me as $22k to 24k. So here is my two cents worth – your car is really worth $24k max trade-in, but the first car you looked at was probably far more expensive that the used XR8 you changed your mind to (maybe you even originally looked at a new car??) and that original car would have translated into a much bigger profit margin for the dealer. Therefore to entice you into making the purchase on the first car (whatever it was) the dealer offered you an inflated trade-in price. Fact is, your car is only worth $24k but the dealer was willing to OVERPAY you for it just to encourage you to buy the first car you enquired about due to the nice tasty profit he stood to make from it. The dealer didn’t change the “value” of your car, he simply offered to pay you MORE than its value to start with because of the profit he stood to make on the first sale.

ps: the dealer wouldn't even let me test drive my TE unless i signed first to buy it!! I search EVERYWHERE in vic for another one becuase i didn't want to give them my money but in the end had to go back and buy it from them cos i couldn't find another in the smae colour and price.........but i got my test drive! ha-ha.

[SP.UTE1]

[QUOTE=SLY_AU3) My mine gripe is that the car should not have different values depending on what I wish to trade it in on.....[/QUOTE]
I don't believe the dealer has been straight up in explaining details to you. I used to work in the trade when I was living in Sydney, and the differerance may be attributed to larger margines in one car over another. Sometimes Ford will offer dealers a $5k incentive to move slow selling stock and the dealer may just be passing this bonus on to you in the form of an inflated trade in price (unlikley though). Once you find a sales person / dealer you bond with then stick with them. Regards Bob

[jdg]

Ah my bad, my figures are for an 06 BF, and XF460's are for an 05 BF (Am I correct?) Is yours an 05 or 06 BF?

[Poetic Justice]

Originally Posted by 42.57lb

I think it is likely that the dealer has to make a certain amount of profit on his cars. As such the first car you had a trade-in price quoted against was likely to be a "good deal" for the dealer. BUT the XR8 on the other hand was not quite as attractive for him, in terms of net profit. Therefore to recoup the $5k he was going to either put up the price, or give you less trade.

Couldn't be more on the money actually.

If anything, it means that the first car you were looking for was most likely a good deal for you rather than them.

The fact that you stepped up to a more expensive vehicle means that the gross profit in the vehicle was reduced, and possibly by an amount that put the dealer in the red. So whilst making you feel you're getting a good deal by not jacking up the original sale price of the car, they'll simply drop the value in your trade in.

Whether or not the dealer is actually pulling a trick on you is left to be said however, in some cases, and it does happen at the dealership I work at, the dealer will be making the figures look healthier.

What you should be more worried about is the final change over figure, and how much you're going to be out by, not how much they are actually paying for your car.

Originally Posted by pb02

At least they are giving you figures. I went to two different Toyota dealers this week looking at Hilux's. Neither would even give me a trade in figure or any quotes unless I was prepared to sign up on the day!!!

Send me a PM and I will have someone contact you in regards to valuing your car and giving you a price on a Hilux mate. Simple as that - and in the Melbourne area as your profile details.

[Wally]

Buying a car is as bad as going for a filling at the dentist. As soon as you walk in you just know the game is on. The salesman is out to make as much as he can out of you and vice versa. Then when it's nearly over you are made to sit around for an eternity while the manager is consulted (that's where they sit around and talk about their upcoming weekend and who's rooting who in the office). Finally you have to run the gauntlet of the accessories bird who tries to convince you that the factory paintjob is substandard and needs some special treatment to protect it against the van halen belt.

The whole time you're not sure if you haven't been fleeced by grifters.

[jaydee]

It's called "change over price", it's how much cash difference they can get out of you, obviously the more the better for the salesman.
When I went to trade my Suzuki Grand Vitara on a BA Futura they offered me 10 grand but I was in the position to be able to buy the Futura outright, negotiated a better deal and sold the Zook privately for $14,500. It did however take 3 months to sell, not much of a market for them at the time.
I'd start advertising the car privately now and see how much interest there is, if you get what you want grab the money, catch a taxi to the car yard and buy your new car. I wouldn't do what I did and sell the my car after I got my new one because you may get stuck with it for some time and have hassles like someone else said with tyre kickers.
Sell it first then you can negotiate a good price on your new car.
Good luck, it's a jungle out there.

[Yaw]

I can see where the dealer is comming from, it seems pretty obvious he has more of a profit margin on one car than he does the other, therfore is able to offer a better deal one and not the other.

[Green X]

Yeah we have a family member, who was in the Car dealership game for years, and he has never once traded any car he has owned, all have been sold privately.

That tells me something.

[sly_ba]

Originally Posted by Brent

Well yeah, sort of. Without wanting to go all philosophical here, the term "worth" or "value" is very subjective. Its like a house. If it went to auction today and sold for $300k, then its worth $300k. If it went a week later because there was a different bidder and it went for $400k, then what's its value? $300 or $400k? Market value is what somebody is prepared to pay for it.

Accordingly, those Red Book values are simply guides as to average value. Its a statistical average taken across multiple trade in and private sale prices. Some would have been higher than redbook. Some lower. You then end up with an "average range".

No matter what the Red Book or any other book says, a dealer will rarely enter into a deal that ends in a net loss for them by the time they've factored the new car price and trade in price. They don't HAVE to offer you anything. its their prerogative, just as its yours to walk away.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I feel for you mate. I hate car dealerships and cheesy sales tactics. Makes my skin crawl. However, its a very unemotive, mathematical transaction for those guys. You could have looked after your cherished trade-in like it was your 1st born, but those guys don't give a stuff.........they just look at it as a number. A lump of metal that they have to turn over as fast as possible into cash. Straight & simple.

Your best bargaining tool is your ability to walk away if you're prepared to sell it privately.

PS. Yep, the GT is a beauty!!!!!!

I do agree with what you are geeting at. I always knew that a private sale would net me the best result, however, I was not prepared for the downright stupidity which was coming from the dealers mouth. Having conversations with unrealistic or stupid people just gets me mad.

PS. glad the GT is working out for ya, wouldnt want to trade would you. (LOL, just trying to have a sense of humor about the whole situation, enjoy her mate)

[darkside]

overheads are a ***** ,all retail business have them ,its the way the world is .i traded our au2 ute with all the mods got a price of 15k ,wholesale price they are worth 11k,now here's the interesting bit ...we looked at a ba superpursuite ute in blueprint had a few mods looked the part etc 40k looked at ba2 ute 46k then got a new bfs/p ute for 53k which cost 70 bucks amonth more in payments ,and no-one has f#*!@d with it ,ford reckon they can loose out so many $$$every now &then and ford credits them on the loss ,a mate just got 30k trade onbaxr8 78,000 k'sthe same type of deal on a fpv s/p ute ......doc

[sly_ba]

Originally Posted by 5tumpy

Mate you're dreaming if that's what you actually think.

Unfortunately in the real world, idealism isn't worth a pinch of the proverbial mate, sounds to me like both prices for your car were fair....

The trade in price of $26,000 is pretty on the money, the $22,000 - $24,000 is a waste of my time. No dreaming here mate.........

[sly_ba]

[QUOTE=1QWKF6]

Originally Posted by SLY_AU3) My mine gripe is that the car should not have different values depending on what I wish to trade it in on.....[/QUOTE

I don't believe the dealer has been straight up in explaining details to you. I used to work in the trade when I was living in Sydney, and the differerance may be attributed to larger margines in one car over another. Sometimes Ford will offer dealers a $5k incentive to move slow selling stock and the dealer may just be passing this bonus on to you in the form of an inflated trade in price (unlikley though). Once you find a sales person / dealer you bond with then stick with them. Regards Bob

You are right when you say that they were not straight up with me, pretty much the opposite actually. If they had of told me what my car was worth to them straight up the first time I would have been happy to walk away (even if the car was only worth $20,000 TO THEM). The fact that I got dicked around so much and was feed a load of BS as to what my car was worth was a joke. I think they changed the trade in value of my car 3 times in 15 minutes. Maybe one day I will find a dealer I can bond with but if my recent dealings are anything to go buy I am not holding my breath.