BMW X5 copied Territoty suspension?

sleekism · 14-01-2008, 11:09 AM

I heard a rumour that the front suspension used in the BMW X5 is a carbon copy of that in the Ford Territory.

Can anybody confirm this with evidence??

drew`SEVNT5 · 14-01-2008, 11:24 AM

what year X5?

im just looking at the diagrams now...

*edit* 1st gen x5(e53) has struts, so thats out... 2nd gen x5(e70) has upper A wishbone, and two lower arms...

DarkXr · 14-01-2008, 11:29 AM

^ I doubt that, BMW are a long way ahead in terms of engineering, they wouldnt need to copy a ford.

dazza_71 · 14-01-2008, 11:34 AM

Ford bought one of the very first x5's that came into the country.At least a year before the territory came out.

Dave_au · 14-01-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dazza_71

Ford bought one of the very first x5's that came into the country.At least a year before the territory came out.

Ford bought the first 5 or so BMW X5s that arrived in the country IIRC.

ClevlndStemer · 14-01-2008, 11:43 AM

HA no way, Ford bought a X5 and used that as a benchmark for the Territory. The X5 has been the industry bench mark for those type of vehicles since its inception.
Ford Au have a good engineering team, but I am sorry BMW are a few steps ahead.

T3ts50 · 14-01-2008, 12:42 PM

IIRC, when Territory first came out, Wheels touted it was the best handling SUV they have driven. Though, it can be a biased opinion aswell.

**Raptor** · 14-01-2008, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleekism

I heard a rumour that the front suspension used in the BMW X5 is a carbon copy of that in the Ford Territory.

Can anybody confirm this with evidence??

To say it's a carbon copy is taking it too far and to think that BMW needs to copy Ford is just a joke. It is true however that the latest X5 has a front suspension layout similar in concept to that found in the Territory. Ford call it Virtual Pivot™

Rather than having a single or fixed shape upper or lower suspension arm (A-arm) these designs use multiple links that allow for the geometry to change throughout the arc of steering and suspension movement. They were first seen on high-end Euro sedans (Mercs, Audi, BMW) in the 1990's and are now becoming more commonplace.

The Territory has 2 lower arms and a single upper arm, thus the upright is fitted with 3 balljoints. This design endows the Territory with it's good road holding and allows a very impressive turning circle for such a large vehicle (when coupled with the front mount rack). The Territory was the first Australian made car to be fitted with such a system and so you could say it has been 'copied' by Holden in their VE Commodore and will most likely also be on the Orion Falcon.

Casablanca · 14-01-2008, 03:21 PM

yea i highly doubt bmw copied from ford look at every car they made through the years then look at ford beamers are light years ahead in well pretty much everything.

then again pricewise can't really beat a ford for competetive pricing and overall are a great car.

Bossxr8 · 14-01-2008, 05:05 PM

When Wheels tested the second gen X5 a few months ago they reckon BMW copied it straight out, its exactly the same setup, a virtual copy. BMW denied it of course.

XR Martin · 14-01-2008, 06:45 PM

It wasnt until the current E90 BMW 3 series that they finally ditched the mcpherson strut setup.

Falcon has had double wishbone since 1988.

The first model Z3s ran the rear suspension from the E30 BMWs (1984), and so did the 3 series compact. (semi trailing arm - like the VN-VZ Commodore)

So they arnt exactly the in the fore front of suspension tech.

VSSII · 14-01-2008, 09:43 PM

Yoo gotta be fu%%en kidding me, Ford Aus copying BMW? This modification was first seen by Benz I think in the mid to late 90's with their variation being an exceptionally long shock absorber which while intruding a little more, made a notable difference to driver comfort.

BMW were considered a bit of a laugh with their 'luxury car' claims back in the days of mac struts on the front. I remember BMW advertising their 93 3 series had 100 million invested in its total design. Mercedes spent this on the rear suspension alone of its C class! However they used this same design on its C E and S class models whilst BMW used the more cost effective design on its cheaper models. Ford Aus? Not even a blip on the screen despite what the salesperson says.

drew`SEVNT5 · 14-01-2008, 10:10 PM

this is the E70 X5's front suspension layout...clicky here

smoo · 14-01-2008, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

It wasnt until the current E90 BMW 3 series that they finally ditched the mcpherson strut setup.

Falcon has had double wishbone since 1988.

The first model Z3s ran the rear suspension from the E30 BMWs (1984), and so did the 3 series compact. (semi trailing arm - like the VN-VZ Commodore)

So they arnt exactly the in the fore front of suspension tech.

So the EA Falcon has double wishbones, doesn't make it better than the Porsche 911 with mac struts... sorta like the ohv v ohc debate ae.

The E30 3 series was the most successful touring car. The E36 compact and Z3 were just a (successful) spin off at the end of the its life time, even tho the Z3 kept it going for another 12 years! My 5 series (1989) has the same rear suspension... find a better handling base/luxury model sedan from the same year... VN Calais, EA Fairmont, Merc E CLass, Audi 100... If pigs fly, altho I'm sure Wheels would have named the VN a winner back in the day

Steffo · 15-01-2008, 03:15 AM

What's so unbelievable about BMW copying Ford?

Ford's been around longer and BMW aren't Gods of motoring. In fact, they're average at best.

drew`SEVNT5 · 15-01-2008, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

What's so unbelievable about BMW copying Ford?
Ford's been around longer and BMW aren't Gods of motoring. In fact, they're average at best.

the fact that BMW have been rocking the 'two seperate link arms on the bottom' on the front of there cars since the early 80s....all they have added is a top wishbone (instead of mac struts), which, last I checked, Ford didnt have a copyright nor claim to be inventors of...

Steffo · 15-01-2008, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drew`SEVNT5

the fact that BMW have been rocking the 'two seperate link arms on the bottom' on the front of there cars since the early 80s....all they have added is a top wishbone (instead of mac struts), which, last I checked, Ford didnt have a copyright nor claim to be inventors of...

I don't care about the Territory vs X5 suspension (btw... after driving both, if you ask me, Territory > X5 as a car) but in general people are acting like "woah BMW can't copy Ford, they're too good."

BMW is one of the most overrated companies - scratch that - the MOST overrated company in the world. They're not God, they're not better then Ford, they're not the best. They can and do copy others, and there is much better.

Ruger · 15-01-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

I don't care about the Territory vs X5 suspension (btw... after driving both, if you ask me, Territory > X5 as a car) but in general people are acting like "woah BMW can't copy Ford, they're too good."

BMW is one of the most overrated companies - scratch that - the MOST overrated company in the world. They're not God, they're not better then Ford, they're not the best. They can and do copy others, and there is much better.

Have you actually stepped into a late model 5 series and compared it to a calais or fairmont ghia? the build quality of bmw in general is top notch. My ba had more squeaks rattles and pitfalls than my e30.

drew`SEVNT5 · 15-01-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

I don't care about the Territory vs X5 suspension (btw... after driving both, if you ask me, Territory > X5 as a car) but in general people are acting like "woah BMW can't copy Ford, they're too good."

Thats your opinion...and for mine your wrong...only thing that a Territory does better than X5 is be cheap, and fall apart easier(not taking the ... we all know Ford's build quality needs to be dragged up a notch)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

BMW is one of the most overrated companies - scratch that - the MOST overrated company in the world. They're not God, they're not better then Ford, they're not the best. They can and do copy others, and there is much better.

Big call. Very big call. Agree with the "not god" sentiment...Ford and BMW arent even in the same leauge...nowhere near...and 'much better'? where? and which models are we talking? 3? 5? 6? 7? M series?

||| · 15-01-2008, 03:30 PM

bmws are ok but really at the end of the day no one really likes them i think its just the badge the cars are pretty boring but back to the territory maybe they did copy them or maybe an employee from ford got the sack and went to centrelink the next thing you know hes in germany working on the x5 and the boss looks over his shoulder and thinks man thats a sweet design let me take you out to the executive canteen to discuss this suspension further

Laminge · 15-01-2008, 03:49 PM

Remember that when the territory was conceived, it was done so at the expense of unique design and several models of other vehicles that where stripped down by ford and to a degree reversed engineered.

xbgs351 · 15-01-2008, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Why doesn't the lower orange line pass through the front bush at the front?

Swordsman88 · 15-01-2008, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

To say it's a carbon copy is taking it too far and to think that BMW needs to copy Ford is just a joke. It is true however that the latest X5 has a front suspension layout similar in concept to that found in the Territory. Ford call it Virtual Pivot™

Rather than having a single or fixed shape upper or lower suspension arm (A-arm) these designs use multiple links that allow for the geometry to change throughout the arc of steering and suspension movement. They were first seen on high-end Euro sedans (Mercs, Audi, BMW) in the 1990's and are now becoming more commonplace.

The Territory has 2 lower arms and a single upper arm, thus the upright is fitted with 3 balljoints. This design endows the Territory with it's good road holding and allows a very impressive turning circle for such a large vehicle (when coupled with the front mount rack). The Territory was the first Australian made car to be fitted with such a system and so you could say it has been 'copied' by Holden in their VE Commodore and will most likely also be on the Orion Falcon.

You are correct Raptor. The X5 suspension is not a direct copy of the territory front susp, for starters given the huge lead time on these euro cars from bmw, merc etc, the new X5 was probably already quite a long way along in development of the suspension designs etc. when the ford was released. As pointed out by others in effect bmw just ditched the strut set up and put an upper wishbone on their two piece bottom end (which also feature on the VE commie and most strut front suspensions worth a damn - NOTE: the aurion doesn't have a two piece!).

Even so, they are uncannilly similar, (i noticed it straight away after looking at the little schematic in the wheels mag) and its not out of the realm of possibility that bmw did look at a bunch of suspension designs around the world when developing the X5 suspension - it was a return to double wishbone after quite an absence in recent times. Given the territory's reputation even overseas of being a 'cut price X5' in terms of handling they almost certainly did look at it in my opinion. All this rubbish about BMW not looking at a ford is ridiculous - they will not copy it per se, but there is nothing wrong with a quick looksee! Just because fords sell at much lower prices and are built worse doesnt' mean their engineers aren't world class - as an engineer myself (in a different field) i can assure you if you give an engineer the money, they will give you the goods!

Also, i don't know why BMW is being abused on here. Sure, they may not have the name of Merc or others but this is the company behind the M3 for christ sake! Their work with vanos straight 6s alone means they deserve at least some respect!

AC/DC · 15-01-2008, 06:44 PM

Yeah, , BMW looked and copied a shock absorber, and swing arm idea....

genius !

AC/DC

GK · 15-01-2008, 08:52 PM

For the record and for the money, I'd be more than happy to take a Territory Turbo or Ghia over an X5 and for that matter a BFII Ghia over a 5 series.

Call me whatever you want, I just prefer Aussie cars and feel proud to own and drive cars made 10 km's from where I live.

GK

Steffo · 15-01-2008, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drew`SEVNT5

Thats your opinion...and for mine your wrong...only thing that a Territory does better than X5 is be cheap, and fall apart easier(not taking the ... we all know Ford's build quality needs to be dragged up a notch)

E36/E34+ BMW's have craptastic build quality. I'm yet to see a good one, and I've seen alot of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drew`SEVNT5

Big call. Very big call. Agree with the "not god" sentiment...Ford and BMW arent even in the same leauge...nowhere near...and 'much better'? where? and which models are we talking? 3? 5? 6? 7? M series?

BMW are very, very overrated. But if you want I'll quickly break down the BMW range with one superior competitor for every class...

Golf > 1-Series
A4 > 3-Series
A6 > 5-Series
A8 > 7-Series
Touareg > X5
Boxster S > Z4M
Cayman S > Z4M Coupe
RS4 > M3
E63 AMG > M5 (RS6 stomps both of them when it comes)
X3 > itself (useless)

The "mighty," E60 M5 runs a not that great 8:13 around the famous Nurburgring-Nordschleife. Why is it not that great? Because the not so "mighty," VTII HSV GTS300 does 8:15. 2 seconds on a 8 minute 15 second (495 second) lap is equal to 0.4% difference. So whoever blinks wrong loses. Nothing in it. That's funny, the "best," (in their dreams) against a stretched Opel with a massaged 'vette engine and a 10+ y/o 6sp manual gearbox in it, and it can't do better then a tie? Go BMW...

Sorry for the off-topic. Though I wouldn't blame BMW for wanting to copy the Territory if they did... it does lots of things better then the useless X5. Like interior space and layout. For a vehicle so big, the X5 is useless and small inside. And can't come as a 7-Seater. Standard features... both of my aunt's X5's (3.0i and now 4.4i) don't have CD-Players in the dash. They have a TV and DVD sat-nav, but no CD-Player, just cassette. Why? BMW wants a few grand to put it in. $100k+ and they don't have CD Players or stackers? Lets not mention the leather on the seats and steering wheel rubbing away in less then a year on both examples... the V8 has been ridden with niggly little engine issues and so on and so forth. BMW (Big Money Wasted) are not immune to issues as people seem to believe, they're just another average at best car, that people pay through the nose for to get a badge that in the grand scheme of things, isn't that impressive. Park a brand spankers M5 next to a 30 year old Ferrari 308 GTB and see what gets more looks...

Territory +1
X5 -1

Walkinshaw · 16-01-2008, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Park a brand spankers M5 next to a 30 year old Ferrari 308 GTB and see what gets more looks...

park a M5 next to a Terrorist holding an IED, see what gets more looks. Thats how much relevance an 308 has to an M5.

Still i whole heartedly agree, 95% of BMW's are underwelming. Batmobile's & 635csi's excluded.

smoo · 16-01-2008, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

E36/E34+ BMW's have craptastic build quality. I'm yet to see a good one, and I've seen alot of them.

BMW are very, very overrated. But if you want I'll quickly break down the BMW range with one superior competitor for every class...

Golf > 1-Series
A4 > 3-Series
A6 > 5-Series
A8 > 7-Series
Touareg > X5
Boxster S > Z4M
Cayman S > Z4M Coupe
RS4 > M3
E63 AMG > M5 (RS6 stomps both of them when it comes)
X3 > itself (useless)

The "mighty," E60 M5 runs a not that great 8:13 around the famous Nurburgring-Nordschleife. Why is it not that great? Because the not so "mighty," VTII HSV GTS300 does 8:15. 2 seconds on a 8 minute 15 second (495 second) lap is equal to 0.4% difference. So whoever blinks wrong loses. Nothing in it. That's funny, the "best," (in their dreams) against a stretched Opel with a massaged 'vette engine and a 10+ y/o 6sp manual gearbox in it, and it can't do better then a tie? Go BMW...

Sorry for the off-topic. Though I wouldn't blame BMW for wanting to copy the Territory if they did... it does lots of things better then the useless X5. Like interior space and layout. For a vehicle so big, the X5 is useless and small inside. And can't come as a 7-Seater. Standard features... both of my aunt's X5's (3.0i and now 4.4i) don't have CD-Players in the dash. They have a TV and DVD sat-nav, but no CD-Player, just cassette. Why? BMW wants a few grand to put it in. $100k+ and they don't have CD Players or stackers? Lets not mention the leather on the seats and steering wheel rubbing away in less then a year on both examples... the V8 has been ridden with niggly little engine issues and so on and so forth. BMW (Big Money Wasted) are not immune to issues as people seem to believe, they're just another average at best car, that people pay through the nose for to get a badge that in the grand scheme of things, isn't that impressive. Park a brand spankers M5 next to a 30 year old Ferrari 308 GTB and see what gets more looks...

Territory +1
X5 -1

Pull you head out of your and come and have a look at any E34 (or even E36, which I reckon is the worst built BMW), which as far as built goes, shits all over any Falcon or Commodore.
You live in a fantasy world, and need to get out of your motor, wheels and car brochure kingdom/office and experience reality. I and many others could take what you say with some grain of salt, but when you claim that crap through pure bais, you have no credibility and might as well talk to a brick wall.
To claim to have 'driven' a car doesn't mean to drive it up/down the road. To draw any conclusion would be to live with it for a period of time, and I'm sure you have never done that. Except for the Pintara.

Remember that in Europe, Audi A6, BMW 5 and Merc E are actually cheaper than a Falcon/Commodore/Camry etc. here (living costs are relative), so that just goes to show how far ahead they really are.

**Raptor** · 16-01-2008, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xbgs351

Why doesn't the lower orange line pass through the front bush at the front?

Good point.

I guess the graphic artist and the engineers aren't quite on the same page regards what's actually going on here, or perhaps it was done on purpose to better illustrate that the pivot point falls outside the normal location of the uprights balljoint. The graphic can be found in the original brochure.

What really does my mind in is what happens to this vitual pivot point as the car steers and the 2 lower balljoints pivot about each other.

It's just like billy cart steering ;)

Dave_au · 16-01-2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Sorry for the off-topic.

Very off topic rant you had there, I dont think personal perceptions of quality come into it at all.

And a CD player is down on the standard features list for the base model X5, both old and new, so I don't understand what is going on there.