Getting through to the Youth

99AUXR · 11-05-2012, 10:53 PM

So after driving four hours today get home to her two of my mates were killed in a crash. These were people who I would have thought to be responsible etc. and not drink drive. NZ has a horrible problem with youths drink driving and driving excessively powerful cars (e.g guy in 6th form has 550+HP SR20DET Silvia).

What can be done to fix this issue after having many talks at school etc and hearing other peoples horror stories it still doesn't get through to people so can anything actually be done. I remember along time ago there was a concept of a car that had a Breathalyser and wouldn't start if it was over a limit. But thats weird. My question is are these youths (and older people) just going to keep doing this and creating grief for loved ones and friends around them as they don't think at the time.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald...al-Hinds-crash

nstg8a · 11-05-2012, 10:55 PM

i honestly dont think the drink driving problem is any worse in nz than it is here in oz, imo its the cars that are the big difference.

GUTLES · 11-05-2012, 11:03 PM

Sorry to hear about your loss :(

Over here in Australia if you get caught drink driving a few times they can install an Interlock on your car when you get you license back. The car won't start unless you blow a 0 reading & at random intervals while driving it requires you to blow in it otherwise it shuts the engine down.

Personally I reckon they should be in every car, other then that I don't know if there's much you can do unfortunally.

Werd. · 11-05-2012, 11:11 PM

There is nothing that can be done.. other than putting in a free 24 hour racetrack every 50km.

flappist · 11-05-2012, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 99AUXR

So after driving four hours today get home to her two of my mates were killed in a crash. These were people who I would have thought to be responsible etc. and not drink drive. NZ has a horrible problem with youths drink driving and driving excessively powerful cars (e.g guy in 6th form has 550+HP SR20DET Silvia).

What can be done to fix this issue after having many talks at school etc and hearing other peoples horror stories it still doesn't get through to people so can anything actually be done. I remember along time ago there was a concept of a car that had a Breathalyser and wouldn't start if it was over a limit. But thats weird. My question is are these youths (and older people) just going to keep doing this and creating grief for loved ones and friends around them as they don't think at the time.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald...al-Hinds-crash

Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done.

Young people take risks, it is genetic and we have evolved that way over hundreds of thousands in not millions of years. We are human and humans do that.

99AUXR · 11-05-2012, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nstg8a

i honestly dont think the drink driving problem is any worse in nz than it is here in oz, imo its the cars that are the big difference.

Yea NZ has no restriction what so ever in what car you can choose. But the thing is Christchurch is just boyracer central Friday-Saterday easily 500 cars just lapping it and being so stupid, rolling around in packs of 5-10 racing. The police can't do anything except pull one car over at a time. Timaru isnt much better except little less people but culture seems to be more like "do a skid bro". And then Invercargill just has bogans that have group of guys that put into money to buy old cars like valiants etc and just boost up main Ave which is just a big long straight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GUTLES

Sorry to hear about your loss :(

Over here in Australia if you get caught drink driving a few times they can install an Interlock on your car when you get you license back. The car won't start unless you blow a 0 reading & at random intervals while driving it requires you to blow in it otherwise it shuts the engine down.

Personally I reckon they should be in every car, other then that I don't know if there's much you can do unfortunally.

Thanks mate it a bit hard and especially so young! Yea just the problem is these are people who have never committed an offense before, But surely they can bring in legislation saying that you by 2015 have to have these installed of your car. Due to the fact that your breaking the law if you fail it anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done.

Young people take risks, it is genetic and we have evolved that way over hundreds of thousands in not millions of years. We are human and humans do that.

True but so much is lost just because of one choice. Why can't someone have a DeLorean with factory optioned flux capacitor. . .

nstg8a · 11-05-2012, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 99AUXR

And then Invercargill just has bogans that have group of guys that put into money to buy old cars like valiants etc and just boost up main Ave which is just a big long straight.

lol, thats pretty much the same description for anywhere south of dunedin.

last time i was in dunedin the car scene was a mix of wealthy young asians in big dollar imports, scarfies in wrecker specials, and bogans that move from invercargill to the big smoke. then it all changes from milton south.

99AUXR · 11-05-2012, 11:56 PM

Pretty much lol that definitely makes up the "Special" part of nz.

scottyg938 · 11-05-2012, 11:59 PM

Sadly I don't think there is much that will stop people from drink driving, only way it can really be reduced is a higher presence of RBT's.
Someone I know got caught DUI (she is 17 and on a 0 Blood alcohol limit) a few weeks ago and was posting on facebook complaining about it, then her dad decided to have a go at me when I said I've got no sympathy for anyone that gets caught drink driving.

BAXR8_Ute · 12-05-2012, 05:31 AM

It's the I'm young and bulletproof mentality and 'it won't happen to me.' you can show all the videos you like, talk at schools til you're red in tha face, but when the adrenaline is pumping those talks go out the window. Scotty, how's that girl going to learn when even her father thinks she's hard done by? I've got no sympathy for people who put others lives at risk, let alone themselves! It's then up to the cops, ambos, ses, vra to scrape the bits together and go and tell the family their loved one is gone. I reckon the power limit on the cars is a good thing... Even though an fg xr6 can be driven which has the same power thereabouts as an au xr8 which can't... The rules need to be looked at there... Maybe also bring in passenger restrictions all the time rather than just between 11 pm and 5am. Without peer pressure who are they going to impress?

I don't think education will work, the young people ( not all, but I'd say most) need to be regulated so harshly that they don't have the opportunity to act like idiots and if they do, the penalties are severe. Sorry to the p platers out there, I know you're not all stupid but alot are, but so are a lot of more mature aged people. I was a downright goose back then and am just lucky nothing bad happened.

My 2 cents...

robertjp · 12-05-2012, 06:52 AM

educaction (car control, stricter licencing), better training and an avenue where these kids can go with the hoted up cars. Has there been any research why these people chose do somthing that is reckless?, and if so what were the recommendations. How do you prevent the tuning houses from providing services to "boy racer" types, maybe limiting power output to the age of the driver unless enroled in a MotorSport NZ course or holding one of it's licences. We were all young once, car technology has progressed immensely from the 1967 Fairmont XT station wagon which was my first car. The wifes Kia Rio would run rings around it, let alone a silvia or similar.

eyes87 · 12-05-2012, 08:38 AM

I was watching a documentary a couple of months ago about the human brain and how it develops. It basically said that between the ages of 14-24 you are doomed to do rebellious stupid things. Your impulse controll is way down as is your "care factor" for doing what you know is wrong.
Now if this study has been done and proven that young people are bound to do stupid reckless things then how can the government not put those alcohol lock things on cars and also maybe speed limiters until you reach 25 or 30?
Don't get me wrong. I think each individual should take responsibility for his/her own actions. But surely the government/kids parents should have some responsibility as well if as you say there are kids getting around in 5-600 hp cars.

eyes87 · 12-05-2012, 08:41 AM

I'm not having a go at younger people in that post either. I actually fall within that age bracket still.

graham7773 · 12-05-2012, 09:14 AM

Power to weight ratio limits (13 or 14kg to 1kw) and zero blood alcohol for people between 16 and 25 regardless of licence class. If found driving with more than 0.0 blood alcohol in a car that person owns, car confiscated and scrapped. If that person does not own the car, car impounded for 3 months. Owner will think twice before loaning the car again. Reason for 0.0 blood alcohol? I know people who after drinking 2 standard drinks, cannot walk a straight line. Draconian? Hell yes! But it would work. The pussy government people who can put these sort of laws in place are too scared of losing their seats/power/money. In England, if you break traction deliberately, you get charged with drive manner dangerous to the public and your car is impounded. I think we need that in Australia. Go to a race track or similar if you feel the need to destroy tyres... Now for the flames...

flappist · 12-05-2012, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graham7773

Power to weight ratio limits (13 or 14kg to 1kw) and zero blood alcohol for people between 16 and 25 regardless of licence class. If found driving with more than 0.0 blood alcohol in a car that person owns, car confiscated and scrapped. If that person does not own the car, car impounded for 3 months. Owner will think twice before loaning the car again. Reason for 0.0 blood alcohol? I know people who after drinking 2 standard drinks, cannot walk a straight line. Draconian? Hell yes! But it would work. The pussy government people who can put these sort of laws in place are too scared of losing their seats/power/money. In England, if you break traction deliberately, you get charged with drive manner dangerous to the public and your car is impounded. I think we need that in Australia. Go to a race track or similar if you feel the need to destroy tyres... Now for the flames...

You do realise that 16-25 year olds are historically the warriors of our race and have traditionally been the core of every revolution.
There is a reason for this and while your heart is in the right place you may find that your theory will blow up in your face.

brydie76 · 12-05-2012, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graham7773

Power to weight ratio limits (13 or 14kg to 1kw) and zero blood alcohol for people between 16 and 25 regardless of licence class. If found driving with more than 0.0 blood alcohol in a car that person owns, car confiscated and scrapped. If that person does not own the car, car impounded for 3 months. Owner will think twice before loaning the car again. Reason for 0.0 blood alcohol? I know people who after drinking 2 standard drinks, cannot walk a straight line. Draconian? Hell yes! But it would work. The pussy government people who can put these sort of laws in place are too scared of losing their seats/power/money. In England, if you break traction deliberately, you get charged with drive manner dangerous to the public and your car is impounded. I think we need that in Australia. Go to a race track or similar if you feel the need to destroy tyres... Now for the flames...

Seriously? Stick to years of driving experience instead, and it may be a good idea. People don't automatically become responsible and mature people/drivers once they hit an age limit- I am more mature and responsible in regards to drinking and driving than many people I know aged 27 or older, despite being in the "irresponsible youth" age bracket. Definitely agree with the power to weight ratio limit though, too many people can dodge around it with diesels/newer 6 cylinders/taking the turbo badges off (yes, I know people who have done it and got away with it).

And to those people going on about the curfew, have a look for the triple j driving week podcasts. There was one about this curfew, and how the main thing it does is just encourage people to drink drive, because one friend can't act as designated driver for many. Not defending them, just stating facts.

mik · 12-05-2012, 11:18 AM

sorry for your loss, the bottom line is if someone want`s to be reckless in a motor vehicle then no amount of slowing them down with power limits or putting restrictions on them will stop them,
all you can do is tighten up laws and try to educate the parents and the kids as much as possible while throwing every obstacle in their way possible to act like this, slow the cars down, make it as expensive as possible for them to get a licence at a young age till their brains grow a bit and hope it saves some of them, try perhaps giving them a distraction/alternative to this behavior other than that it`s up to them.

99AUXR · 12-05-2012, 12:17 PM

What about increasing alcohol age limit i.e to USA age 21? as it is the common factor.

mik · 12-05-2012, 12:29 PM

i think the more hurdles you can put in their way has to help, all you can do is try.

2011G6E · 12-05-2012, 12:35 PM

What about making it an actual serious offence to be pulled up drink driving?

Too many people just keep on drink driving, knowing they'll just be fined and let go again to keep on driving. Oh sure, the majority of people will do the right thing if they get pinged and stay off the road, but the repeat offenders need something to be afraid of.
How about mandatory jail for a second offence, no appeal, you're gone for two months or something? Maybe a $10,000 fine, maybe permanent confiscation of whatever vehicle they're driving at the time, no matter who owns it, unless it's stolen? Maybe second offence means you're disqualified absolutely for life, never to hold any sort of licence again...it's a privelage, not a right after all.

99AUXR · 12-05-2012, 12:41 PM

well you get big fines for piracy

BAXR8_Ute · 12-05-2012, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brydie76

And to those people going on about the curfew, have a look for the triple j driving week podcasts. There was one about this curfew, and how the main thing it does is just encourage people to drink drive, because one friend can't act as designated driver for many. Not defending them, just stating facts.

It's a double edged sword I reckon. It may encourage drink driving, but any sensible person would know the dangers to themselves and other road users of this which brings you ack to the poor choices made by young people sometimes. On the other hand with no curfew they could drive home a car load of drunk idiots and be put in the peer pressure situation.... Why does drinking have to be so important that you have to put your life at risk to do it?

brydie76 · 12-05-2012, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAXR8_Ute

It's a double edged sword I reckon. It may encourage drink driving, but any sensible person would know the dangers to themselves and other road users of this which brings you ack to the poor choices made by young people sometimes. On the other hand with no curfew they could drive home a car load of drunk idiots and be put in the peer pressure situation.... Why does drinking have to be so important that you have to put your life at risk to do it?

Unfortunately, sensibility doesn't come into it for some people- at any age. As I've said before, some of the least responsible/most likley to DD people I know are nearer to 40 than 20, and the most responsible and decent ones who will not drink a drop to give friends a drive are near my age. So honestly, I don't think there is any solution for any age- everybody can fall prey to these issues, slapping curfews on an arbitrary group may do some good, but isn't a cure-all.

Like somebody else said, the real deterrent is to make it a very unappealing thing to do penalty wise. Not a straight out first offender just over the limit going to jail (people do miscalculate and make mistakes, even if we don't agree with it), but a major penalty for being very over the limit/repeat offenders. Remember from my "want to be a lawyer" days going to court and seeing a case where a guy was in for his 5th High range DUI offence. It was only on this offence they actually suspended his licence, because he said he needed it for doctors appointments...

MWTB · 12-05-2012, 01:13 PM

The notion that young people have the 'I'm bulletproof it won't happen to me' mentality is crap, and honestly I'm sick of hearing it.

I'm 21 and I've heard it all, especially from my parents. I drive a car with 180rwkw (which I shouldn't be driving as a P plater) but guess how many speeding tickets I've ever had? 0. Guess how many red light infringements I've had? 0. Guess how many times I've been picked up for drag racing? 0. Guess how many times I've been done for drink driving! Does it surprise you that that number is also 0?

Yes, young people are typically idiots with things but its not because we have the 'won't happen to me' bulletproof attitude, it's because the possibility just doesn't come into our head because we don't think about it; and I use 'we' very loosely (I choose not to compare myself to the cretins that are posting about how hard done by they are for losing their license for being 40km/h over).

The answer, in my opinion, is simple. Power to weight ratios like days of old, 125kw per tonne. No forced induction except for diesel cars. It seems ridiculous that I can drive my stock XR6 with 190 at the flywheel but I can't drive a VS HSV with 185 and much heavier.

I am sorry for your loss, and I am sorry to say that its going to keep happening because people my age just don't think about what could happen.

So please, for the sake of my sanity, don't post back telling me that I'm wrong and P platers do think they are invincible because we don't. We're stupid, but we're not THAT stupid. Most P platers just tend to take risks without assessing the consequence properly.

prydey · 12-05-2012, 01:13 PM

personally, i don't think there is anything that can be done. people are dying now because laws aren't being adhered to. how will changing the laws make one scrap of difference if they aren't being adhered to anyway. changing rules and laws only affects the law abiding people. end of story.

i also find it funny how many older people say its too easy to get a licence these days, and yet when compared to their own situation, it is many times harder.

_Ben · 12-05-2012, 01:29 PM

IMO people don't REALLY learn their lesson until something happens. Be it reversing down a driveway and hitting a fence because you temporarily lost concentration, or spinning out and doing some damage due to skidding, it takes experience to realise what can happen.

99AUXR · 12-05-2012, 01:35 PM

MWTB Perfectly said, I'm 18 and I agree with every thing you say especially about the invincible thing, that never comes into me or friends heads. The thing is they don't take 2 seconds to think of the possible outcomes/consequences. I drive an AU XR6 and also have no speeding tickets etc. and I'm doing a heap of Km every week more than most older people and man there is some shocking driving!

Great post well said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Ben

IMO people don't REALLY learn their lesson until something happens. Be it reversing down a driveway and hitting a fence because you temporarily lost concentration, or spinning out and doing some damage due to skidding, it takes experience to realise what can happen.

yes I agree, it seems nowadays you have to have done something (and survived) to realize how stupid it was. But still there are some that will continue even after they have had one stuff up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Ben

IMO people don't REALLY learn their lesson until something happens. Be it reversing down a driveway and hitting a fence because you temporarily lost concentration, or spinning out and doing some damage due to skidding, it takes experience to realise what can happen.

Mainly agree but there are some cases i.e Timaru where there is a guy that goes for the driving test that shouldn't have his job to be fair. I've heard some fun stories about what he has let past before. e.g 5-10km over

.

flappist · 12-05-2012, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

What about making it an actual serious offence to be pulled up drink driving?

Too many people just keep on drink driving, knowing they'll just be fined and let go again to keep on driving. Oh sure, the majority of people will do the right thing if they get pinged and stay off the road, but the repeat offenders need something to be afraid of.
How about mandatory jail for a second offence, no appeal, you're gone for two months or something? Maybe a $10,000 fine, maybe permanent confiscation of whatever vehicle they're driving at the time, no matter who owns it, unless it's stolen? Maybe second offence means you're disqualified absolutely for life, never to hold any sort of licence again...it's a privelage, not a right after all.

The reaction to this is exactly what has happened all over the world......

Put it this way, if I keep punching you in the face getting slightly harder each time how long before you react VERY VIOLENTLY.

All of these amazing social engineering plans rely on the flawed logic that young people will perceive and react the same way as older people. They do not, they are genetically programmed not to not hundreds of thousands of years and no amount of feel good nannyism or over the top authoritarianism will make the slightest difference.

Just look at history.

Ignore Hitler as that will always draw some idiot keyboard warrior invoking "Godwin's law" but look at, for example prohibition in USA or McCarthyism or even our own Magna Carta not to mention almost every cultural revolution well....ever. It was not old people who changed the world with Facebook, SMS, Apple, Microsoft, Linux etc.

All old people were young once and survived. We all did silly things, some of us learned, some didn't and some died.

Young people take risks and do silly things. Physically preventing them will just make them take bigger risks and do sillier things because you are now the enemy and if you don't think that young people who think they are being unjustly persecuted are not a problem google Pol Pot or Joseph Kony, et. al.

lilmattie · 12-05-2012, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done.

Young people take risks, it is genetic and we have evolved that way over hundreds of thousands in not millions of years. We are human and humans do that.

That's one theory and only that. It should not be taught or stated as fact. I agree that young people take risks however.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 99AUXR

So after driving four hours today get home to her two of my mates were killed in a crash. These were people who I would have thought to be responsible etc. and not drink drive. NZ has a horrible problem with youths drink driving and driving excessively powerful cars (e.g guy in 6th form has 550+HP SR20DET Silvia).

What can be done to fix this issue after having many talks at school etc and hearing other peoples horror stories it still doesn't get through to people so can anything actually be done. I remember along time ago there was a concept of a car that had a Breathalyser and wouldn't start if it was over a limit. But thats weird. My question is are these youths (and older people) just going to keep doing this and creating grief for loved ones and friends around them as they don't think at the time.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/6904059/Speed-alcohol-blamed-for-fatal-Hinds-crash

I don't think the solution is something that everyone would agree to do. My opinion (although not a popular one) is that we need to reduce the image that getting drunk is having a good time and make it less socially acceptable.

It's not just a problem for the youth. Everyday you hear about people dying due to drink driving.. and it's not always young people.

Also, it's not the driving that's the issue. It's the drunk part. Alcohol is the problem IMHO. It's a drug, it's addictive and it's actually promoted in society.

99AUXR · 12-05-2012, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilmattie

I don't think the solution is something that everyone would agree to do. My opinion (although not a popular one) is that we need to reduce the image that getting drunk is having a good time and make it less socially acceptable.

It's not just a problem for the youth. Everyday you hear about people dying due to drink driving.. and it's not always young people.

Also, it's not the driving that's the issue. It's the drunk part. Alcohol is the problem IMHO. It's a drug, it's addictive and it's actually promoted in society.

True, I'm not really a big drinker and rarely drink to be honest, even though most uni students theory is get drunk to have a good time