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12-10-2020, 05:20 PM | #1 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Here you go
Cheers
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12-10-2020, 07:12 PM | #2 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,621
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personally, if i don,t do my job, i can expect to get a-holed.
i,m sick of hearing "Lessons to be learned", you have opened a can of worms. but interesting times we live in. |
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12-10-2020, 09:45 PM | #3 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Ignore party politics for a sec and just focus on governance.
It seems absolutely crazy that you can have a system where there is potentially 7 different ways to deal with a pandemic within a country, but that is what we have witnessed to a varying degree. Something is not right. It almost worked, but almost is not good enough. As far as I am aware, the constitution states that the federal government is accountable for quarantine. The responsibility was delegated to the states, they accepted, fair enough. But as the accountable entity you have a duty to provide oversight. At work, it is drummed into us that you can delegate responsibility but not accountability. The phrase "all care no responsibility" seems to ring true with our current setup. As for stuff ups, I have stuffed up on many occasions in life and at work, but I always got a chance to make it up. So I am in the camp that believes you get a chance to fix a mess, on the proviso that the mess wasn't created because of deliberate actions, corruption or blatant incompetence. We need to wait for the hotel inquiry report to see if the mess in Vic tick any of the 3. |
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13-10-2020, 06:24 AM | #4 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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I am sick of people saying 'our constitution this' and ' our constitution that' but have never ever read it, I have! Our constitution is mostly about how our political system is set up, not about civil rights We have seen our Constitution at work with the States having more power than most Australians ever thought, that is our Constitution. And the Federal Government having a lot less power than people ever thought, that is our Constitution Why has there been very few 'Amendments' to the Constitution, because it is bloody good and 'human rights this' and human right that' but have never picked up the Human Rights Charter, not being allowed access to potable water is a human right breach'. Having to wear a face mask is NOT a human rights breach FFS! so show me where in our Constitution is says that
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Last edited by Trevor 57; 13-10-2020 at 06:30 AM. |
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13-10-2020, 06:33 AM | #5 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rides (past and present) Current: 2004 Ford Falcon 5.4L 3v Barra 220, Manual Past: Mitsubishi Sigma (m), Toyota Seca (m), Toyota Seca SX (m), Toyota Vienta V6 (m), Toyota Soarer 4L v8 (a), BA XR8 ute (m), T3 TE50 (m), BMW Z4 (m) AFF motto - If contrary views trigger, please use ignore button. |
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13-10-2020, 06:55 AM | #6 | ||
N/A all the way
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“Hotel Quarantine of returning travellers” has nothing to to with general quarantine, These processes were enacted under each states state of emergency or disaster laws with handed powers to thier chief medical officers. The constitution allows state to make laws in this regard and actively stops the federal government from “meddling” too deeply into state affairs
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13-10-2020, 07:07 AM | #7 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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13-10-2020, 07:15 AM | #8 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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https://www.loc.gov/law/help/health-.../australia.php "Under Australia’s federal system, states and territories have primary responsibility for matters related to health care and emergency management. The federal government provides various funding, policy leadership, and coordination assistance in the context of national responses to public health emergencies. It also has quarantine powers and powers related to border management that can be utilized where there is an epidemic or threat of an epidemic. National agreements, as well as the National Health Security Act 2007 (Cth), establish structures and processes for preventing and responding to national health emergencies, with different entities providing oversight and coordination at the national level, and states and territories applying their own laws, jurisdictional responses, and coordination processes. This includes a national notification and surveillance system under which state and territory authorities report on instances of certain diseases to a central authority, which then makes information available for analysis and discussion. In the event of a public health threat, state and territory public health laws provide a range of powers to enable action to be taken by authorities. This can include ordering medical examinations, treatment, and detention of individuals." |
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13-10-2020, 07:17 AM | #9 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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States have their own powers and as stated earlier under the declaration of 'disaster' or 'emergency' they can invoke other powers
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13-10-2020, 07:18 AM | #10 | |||
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If anything, that proves where the Feds have failed with this COVID-19 thing
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13-10-2020, 07:22 AM | #11 | |||
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https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam.../rp0405/05rp03
"The movement towards federation also facilitated the emergence of a national approach to public health. In the lead-up to federation, one of the matters raised regularly as one for which a national government should have the power to make laws was quarantine.(5) The reason given was that quarantine was essential to the health and prosperity of Australia, which this statement from 1884 reflects: Quarantine is a means only to the end sought: which last is the preservation of the public health in Australasia .(6) Quarantine became one of the few functions of government at the time for which the new Commonwealth Parliament had power to make laws.(7) However, it took outbreaks of disease around the country, such as bubonic plague which ran from 1900 to 1909, to prompt the Commonwealth Government to give legislative effect to its Constitutional quarantine powers. After a conference of state premiers in 1906 passed a resolution that quarantine administration should be taken over by the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth Government introduced a Quarantine Bill in 1907 which took effect from 1 July 1909, as the Quarantine Act 1908 ( the Act ).(8)" Has it been updated since? I haven't read the whole thing. Its too long. Someone else read it and interpret it for me :P Quote:
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13-10-2020, 07:43 AM | #12 | ||
Cabover nut
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Bingo.
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heritagestonemason.com/Fordlouisvillerestoration In order that the labour of centuries past may not be in vain during the centuries to come...... D. Diderot 1752
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13-10-2020, 08:05 AM | #13 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Riddle me this: Why did the first lot of return travellers get sent to Christmas Island for their quarantine but NO others did? ALL should have been sent there and other off-shore quarantine centres, they are all sitting there pretty much empty. The Feral Government shirking their responsibility IMHO. I totally hold the Feds totally responsible, they let the border control get out of control - it is their responsibility. Ruby Princess is another example of the lack of border control - but the Murdoch press won't have you believe that - it is all the Labor Party's fault W.A. did it right, sent them to Rottnest Island
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Last edited by Trevor 57; 13-10-2020 at 08:11 AM. |
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13-10-2020, 11:08 AM | #14 | ||
T3/Sprint8
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 16,550
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cheeez its always pointing the finger at one party or the other.
Thats our problem, finger pointing.... Its all ones fault - Fed/State - fancy having a pandemic in a 1000yrs and our leaders cannot work together let alone voters blaming blue red or green. WTFU - the main thing obvious to me we lack "leadership" period and IF we did have a strong leader how many of you would still say he/she is no good lol...... Sometimes you got to take your rose coloured glass's off for there is no one better from any side unless you yourself stand up get nominated and practice what you preach Trevor, are you kidding me, how many would be complaining humanitarien rights we kept placing OS arrivals offshore every single time, turn it up. What can be learned that never sinks in, you can't please them all.
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13-10-2020, 12:58 PM | #15 | ||
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They did it for the first lot out of Wuhan, then Feds put it onto the States to manage - then sit back and criticise when it goes pear shaped.
Feds are responsible for our National borders - fact!!!
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13-10-2020, 02:12 PM | #16 | ||
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13-10-2020, 02:38 PM | #17 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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13-10-2020, 04:11 PM | #18 | ||
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thats how you see it Trevor, its the other sides fault, that helps.
IF only it was that easy. Its whoever is handling those issues/problems as they occurs fault, no matter which/who's side its on and no matter which side of the press quote click bait leading headlines for reaction. Who's giving instructions ? who didn't ? not what side in the big picture. Your being just like the left or right side of the press, will it help ? not one bit. I know you'll counter with some kind of whatever but it no matter, its easy to see its just black and white or I mean blue vs red to you.
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13-10-2020, 04:42 PM | #19 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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I am sorry if the facts (as I see them) hurt your feelings
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13-10-2020, 04:54 PM | #20 | ||
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All it would have taken was for the states to hold the Feds up to their side, but that would have required all states to agree on how the Feds would handle it, but they all wanted to handle things their own way. Remember the first few national cabinets, no one would relinquish control of anything.
So yes it could have been handled under the federal laws, but the states CHOSE to use their powers and handle it themselves under their own set of laws. It is all a bit like a bad movie, local cops don't want the feds involved, because we can solve the case better.
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13-10-2020, 05:28 PM | #21 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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and based on how the Feds handled the border control and aged care it wasn't such a bad idea
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13-10-2020, 09:55 PM | #22 | ||
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Just got off a conference with my line manager in the UK. I asked how their health and quarantine system worked, UK being made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and further broken down into regions, counties and districts within these areas. And similar to our model, each of the 4 countries ran their own quarantine and restriction programs. You can judge the result for yourself.
England has just introduced a 3 tier system, low, medium, high risk. However, each local government may be able to tweak their own rules for the tiers, so two regions on the same tier may have slightly different rules, but this is still to be decided. It's not too dissimilar to the "traffic light" system mentioned by the PM, but I'm hoping that if it gets implemented here, there is a universal rule for red, amber and green. Not have each state or LGA tweak their own. We should watch the UK tier system closely and learn from it. Reads like he just had an opinion. Didn't see any left vs right or red vs blue. But I agree, the media has drummed into us that having an opinion puts you into a category, as just proven. |
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14-10-2020, 05:21 AM | #23 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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they are going in to their 2nd wave, we are coming out of our 2nd wave
Johnson was a non-believer until he go it and finished up in ICU, he is balancing the financial implications versus the health implications, in the past it was all about the financial, but he has swayed, but I am not 100% sure his Party is behind him
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14-10-2020, 06:28 AM | #24 | ||
I am Groot
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Well if you are talking facts Trev it was the AMA (Australian Medical Association) who told the Feds not send any more people to Xmas Island after the first lot, it was on the AMA's informed recommendations that Xmas Island's medical facilities are not up to dealing with an outbreak of Coronavirus (and rightly so) that the Feds reversed the decision to continue sending people into quarantine on the Island....
Where the Feds stuffed up In this particular instance was by not consulting with the AMA in the first place...
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14-10-2020, 10:59 PM | #25 | |||
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I tend to think this pandemic has shown the constitution needs to be looked at, along with the levels of government. A premier needs PM endorsement to use the ADF, yet can isolate their state by a state law or pass a bill to bypass Fed Constitution sect 92(freedom of movement). Reminds me of the Hutt river succession all those years ago. Are we a Federation?, or still a bunch of colonies after 120 yrs. Local government isn't recognised in the Fed Constitution - so you pay rates to a non existent entity. While federal funding like jobseeker/keeper and GST keep coming in, there's no onus to reopen to aid local economies. |
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15-10-2020, 05:47 AM | #26 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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good luck changing it, the only way to change our Constitution is by popular vote and Aussie's aren't that keen on the idea of changing it
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15-10-2020, 05:49 AM | #27 | ||
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The vast majority of States and Territories residents supported the border closures, hence the high approval ratings of Premiers
And important fact to remember - Victoria did NOT shut their borders, NSW & S.A. did
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15-10-2020, 11:29 AM | #28 | |||
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And WA. |
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15-10-2020, 12:14 PM | #29 | |||
Cabover nut
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Its supposed to be a quarantine station FFS. Bring it up to standard for that reason. As for laying blame, Funny how we all have to take responsibility for what we do, why can't a lazy public servant or politician do the same. Feds imo are ultimately responsible for all this right from the start they had the means to stop it from entering this big Island and chose to farm it out to the stupid, lazy, greedy state governments. In fact why do we even need state governments ? We could have a system where there is a Federal government and the local/county governments. We could then weed out all the deadwood state public servants.
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heritagestonemason.com/Fordlouisvillerestoration In order that the labour of centuries past may not be in vain during the centuries to come...... D. Diderot 1752
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15-10-2020, 01:13 PM | #30 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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wow, does the W.A border extend to Victoria
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