Peter Brock overrated?

[ehast13]

I don't know if this is the right forum but I was listening to some nonsense media claptrap this morning and the Journo spoke of Peter Brock and said "he was acknowledged as the best touring car driver of all time - in the world"

I hate to speak ill of the dead but, while brocky was fast, I can't see too many times when he had that much competition! Allow me to explain....

He won three championships

His first was against Moffat in an outgunned xa/xb. Moffat didn't even turn up to the last two rounds.

His second was in the new factory A9X. The moffat Cobras were out gunned and HDT was the only factory team. The follwing year, Bob Morris beat the 'shifty' HDT team in a privateer car.

In 1980, the biggest threat he faced was Bartletts Camaro. There was no real competition.

Yes he won a lot of enduros but he had the luck of being in the best car for the day (1972? 1978, 1979, 1982, 1983, 1984) or having the best team tactics or having the best luck (1980, 1987). When he went to BMW in 1988 with Jim Richards, richo spanked him. At some tracks richo was over a second quicker in qualifying! There's only about 20 months between them in age.

Brock was fast, naturally gifted but his last v8 supercar appearance saw him 4 or 5 seconds of the pace (struggling to qualify HRT 05 in 2.12 at Bathurst with Plato).

I won't go into his personal life as it has nothing to do with his racing. I will make one comment tho, for someone so inspitational he contradicted himself way too much. He was the ultimate snake oil salesman. The world is a poorer place since his death but to deify him as the 'best driver ever' is pushing it a bit far

[JC]

Look, wheile you are entitled to your opinion, it is not one I share. You measure a sports person success by how they perform. Brock won 9 Bathursts "The great Race". No-one else, international drivers included, has done that. There are a few close, but he won 9 (10 if you count the 12 hour). At times, he may not have been the fastest, and at times he was certainly not in the most powerful car - yet he still won. He won one race by more than one lap. Other times, his car broke, so he jumped into the cross entered car that was lower down in the order, and he drove it to the front and won.

The guy was a genius behind the wheel, and not a bad businessman as well - we're all allowed a mistake or two, and the polariser certainly polarised people, but HSV is where it is today because of Brock, and FPV is where it is because of HSV. His only other really big mistake cost him his life.

Yes, in my opinion, it does make him the greatest touring car driver to date. My 4 year old twins know who Peter Brock is and how he died. I am a reasonably dedicated Ford fan, but I will still try to instill in them an appreciation for great drivers like Brock (and good ones like Skaife too, while I'm at it).

If you want to talk of disappointing drivers, need I mention Lowndes?

[Scott]

PB was tremendous. He was a driver that not only had a great car & team but he could race on the ragged edge for hours at a time. Have a look through the last few pages in the "Ebay, youtube etc car related thread" and you'll see some links I posted there that show just how good not only Brock was, but how good his competition was too.

Jim Richards is arguably as good, if not a better driver than Brock if you look at his whole career but Jim is not quite the "whole package" that Brock was. Jim still enjoys much success which Brock didn't find in his days after ATCC/V8SC.

Brock was an incredible driver:

At Bathurst he lost 5kg's per race!! - these were the days before cool suits & adequate ventilation mind you.

He was an incredible business man (ok, polarizer is a bad example but I dare you to go and look at the value of one today!),

He built great cars (ref the example of him bringing BMW's in from Germany to study them as a basis of how to make a Commodore handle. By the time he looked at the BMW, made it handle like he thought it should, and sent it back to BMW when he was done, they looked at what he had done - studied it and gifted the car back to him. Those learnings are why Brock Commodores could hold such high cornering G's without loss of traction.

He [must have been] a great family man even though he was divorced twice - I have never heard any of his family ever say anything but the best about him;

He has a legion of fans that is still growing, and they are amongst the most passionate fans you will find anywhere in the world, in any sport;

He is the reason the 0.05 message is so strong today.

He invested heavily into Australian Sport & Charity and led the charge of Australian Racing o/s. What kind of twit takes an FX to the UK to race amongst the best touring cars of that era.... and gets it home in 4th? Peter Brock, thats who. Before that he took his VK there and ran 5th. Can't remember where he took the VL.....

[Scott]

Originally Posted by JC

If you want to talk of disappointing drivers, need I mention Lowndes?

Lowndes is not disappointing to me, he is unlucky which is disappointing. I have never seen a driver that attracts the rough end of a pineapple like he does. Unfortunately now, his best days are behind him and a big chunk of those days were wasted by Ford. What a waste of the best talent this sport has seen since PB.

[Raptor]

He certainly had some talent in his day and was very charismatic and thus deserving of the success he enjoyed, both at the track and in business. Regardless of what I thought of him in his latter years (and it isn't flattering) there isn't another presonality that I can think of that did as much for the profile of motorsport as PB did.

Can you name any other driver whose accidental death would make front page news across the country, just like Steve Irwin he was an icon in his field and it was ironic that they both met their accidental ends only months apart.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by ehast13

and the Journo spoke of Peter Brock and said "he was acknowledged as the best touring car driver of all time - in the world"

What a load of rubbish, what did he win outside of Australia, unless you have a proven record in a variety of competitions how can you be the best ever.

He was a great driver, that cannot be disputed but the best touring car driver of all time... no way.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

What a load of rubbish, what did he win outside of Australia, unless you have a proven record in a variety of competitions how can you be the best ever.

He was a great driver, that cannot be disputed but the best touring car driver of all time... no way.

So by that rationale, you can't say anyone else is better because they didn't come here and beat the great PB to a level where you could say they were a better driver.

[RIPGMH]

Originally Posted by ehast13

"he was acknowledged as the best touring car driver of all time - in the world"

Jim Richards always seemed the more technically skilled driver, but that doesn't make you the greatest, nor does PB winning all that he did. You could easily say that he should be regarded as one of the best but the above statement is a bit of a stretch.

[Bossxr8]

I agree, Brock won most of his Bathursts when he either had no competition or he jumped in the other car when his blew up. He always had the best car too. All his wins came late 70's, early eighties, when HDT were king and Ford weren't even interested in racing anymore. He was good, but he was never the god his fans made him out to be.

In terms of Championships I consider DJ's wins were of a higher achievement, as he had next to no backing from Ford and he did alot of the development work himself, he didn't rely on factory personnel and factory dollars to do it.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by GTP006

So by that rationale, you can't say anyone else is better because they didn't come here and beat the great PB to a level where you could say they were a better driver.

:

No, my rationale is....

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

unless you have a proven record in a variety of competitions how can you be the best ever.

Just my opinion, don't let it keep you awake at night:

:

[Scott]

lol, ok.

[schnoods]

Great driver, not the best, but right up there.

Your only as good as the competiton you race and the track your on.

I still consider him to have only won 9 titles, the one in 2003, at the Bathurst 24 Hour, when he won, with Greg Murphy, Jason Bright and Todd Kelly in a Garry Rogers Motorsport prepared HRT 427C, was a joke to say the least, the only competition the had was from the other 427 monaro, while the rest of the field could only compete in cars that you could actually buy.

He was good, but not that good. He won 3 ATC titles, Ian Geoghegan won 5, Jim richards 4, Skaife has won a ATC title too, along with 3 V8 supercar titles too.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by schnoods

Ian Geoghegan won 5, Jim richards 4, Skaife has won a ATC title too, along with 3 V8 supercar titles too.

ian geoghan won only 1 touring car title. he was champion 4 other times when the championship consisted of 1 race. skaife has won the title 5 times (4 as v8 supercar champion). sorry to be so pedantic

in my view from what i have seen moff and brock are the 2 best. while i worship one, i have no time for the other, but they were both legends on the track. moff won the sebring 12 hours outright in 1975, and won class victories at le mans and daytona as well. if you take away the romance of 9 bathurst victories moff has the better record in my view.
brock had to do a lot wrong to lose bathurst between 1978 and 1984 - simply because a holden was going to win all but one of those and he had the best holden. he certainly deserved the best holden though, as moff had always deserved the best ford

[gcg2503]

Think the statement is a bit of a stretch IMO but a tremendous driver nonetheless

[Lukeyson]

Originally Posted by GTP006

his best days are behind him and a big chunk of those days were wasted by Ford. What a waste of the best talent this sport has seen since PB.

Exactly, great talent, never had the tools to get the job done. I hope it isnt over for him though

PB was a great, but i do understand where the original poster is coming from. Every little boy whether they liked Ford or H***en wanted to race cars like Brocky tho

[MITCHAY]

He's the best if you ask me

[Rev28K]

He was definitely one the best touring car drivers in the world (top ten of all time).

Like a lot of our drivers there is a possibility that others could’ve done more if given the chances and opportunities that Brock had – but they didn’t did they. At his peak he was very good at doing what he did, other drivers may have been as capable but they were a bit one-dimensional all they could do was race cars well without beating them up. John Bagshaw said that they shipped PB off to a finishing school to round off the rough edges and make him more media presentable and they did an exceptional job on PB. He was incredible to watch with the fans, I met him a few times and each time it was a “WOW” moment.

Don’t forget he was initially hired for his rally abilities (anyone remember the Round Australia win with the then new Commodores), he also dragged up the 3.0CSL BMW way up the field with Team Brock at Le Mans. I’ve had occasion to talk with Ron Bentley (who built his first race car) and he said that he stood out as being more gifted than the average race driver. While he had his faults (very superstitious about the Bob Jane Porsche at Le Mans – some of his mechanical sympathy was a bit opportunistic – I thought setting quickest lap at Bathurst in the A9X on the last lap when he had the race by the balls was a bit dumb - he never liked Nascar racing (then again neither did Johnson while Jimmy Richards LOVED it) – In the later days at HRT he would try to simply drive around a problem rather than identify it and solve it) on his day he was a very good racer and a wonderful ambassador for the sport. Like a lot of Australia’s “greats” (Moffat, Johnson, Perkins, Bowe, etc) he also carried on far longer than he should have.

It’s always hard to rate people from different eras. Some people say that one of the things about champions is that they have the good gear and can drag the good people towards them then lift a team up while others argue that a champion will drag a car up far above where it should finish. I’ve spoken to someone who’s team raced against HDT (he wound up working for HDT for a while) back in the ATCC days and he said that Brock (and HDT) was always the one they measured themselves against.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Rev28K

Like a lot of Australia’s “greats” (Moffat, Johnson, Perkins, Bowe, etc) he also carried on far longer than he should have.

while i see your point - and admit i am biased, moff won the last race he entered. a 500k touring car race in japan on the eve of his 50th birthday in november 1999. it was no doubt more to do with klaus neidzwiedz than allan, but he did win it

[ehast13]

Wow. I guessed I stirred up a hornets nest. I am surprised that His business acumen and family life were brought into it. Even he acknowledged he couldn't run a country toilet successfully. He had little business acumen. He was a brand name which was marketed successfully until he threw it all away.

It wasn't just the polarizer that sunk him. He was building cars without consultation with Holden. He released the Director with AdR testing it, oh man!

He had a few partners and there were allegations from one wife of violence (and other assorted unmentionable behaviours). He was a womanisor (ask my wife!, or even Bev Brock - she was the wife of one of his employees and he cheated on her too!)

His PR image was an illusion. Ask any reporter who questioned his vehicles, motives or honesty (even in the face of overwhelming evidence) and they'll tell you he could turn very dark, very quickly.

In a 1994 article on old race cars he said "I never remember old race cars. They are just tools of the trade. I wouldn't have the faintest about the 79 a9x. Moffat was always sentimental about that sort of stuff"

Not that much later when being interviewed about his 79 A9X by another magazine "Oh Yeah, I remember everything about that car. I guess I'm a bit more sentimental about the old cars than most. I always felt that you had a relationship with the car. I used to talk to them. I think I can remember every car I ever raced"

The guy's public face was just that, a facade. He told reporters what they wanted to hear.

As for speed, he was fast but he was no match Colin Bond on dirt (Harry Firth said this last year) and from 78 to 84 who had a team to match his at Bathurst? JOhnson's privateer operation? Moffats torqueless mazda?

Please, the only time he spun was when he was under pressure. Grice was as quick but too rough on the car.

I believe Brocky was one of the best. But I don't think he was better than Richo who always equalled or bettered him in the same equipment.

Oh, Brock fixing BMW's. Yeah he did really well in 1988! He was usually only a second slower than his teammate.

[Steffo]

I'll agree that Brock was a tad on the overrated side.

He won one race alot. He didn't win many championships.

As far as I'm concerned, championship > Bathurst. Its just one race, where the entire championship is a year's worth of consistancy and performance... far more impressive and admirable.

[ehast13]

Yeah, I tend to agree with that.

The problem with enduros is that it is often no the fastest driver who wins (particularly before 1993) as reliability was so stretched. Even drivers who were renowned for being easy on the car had failures (Brock 74, Moffat 74, 75, 76, 78, 79, 80). The fact remains that I enjoy watching bathurst more than any other race.

I think JC got a little offended and forgot to look at the post objectivly.

Tom Walkinshaw was an unbelievable touring car driver in his day. His first visit to bathurst in 84 in John Goss' Jag showed what the man could do. He surprised a few people that day.

Had he or John Fitzpatrick or even Win Percy been given factory drives in the second HDT car I am sure they would have figured in the results.

Had Richo stayed with HDT He would have shared another 3 wins and would have ten. If his 1995 commodre hadn't suffered a minor component failure he might have eleven. If Skaife hadn't put it in the wall in 1994 he might have twelve. If the BMW in 87 didn't lose a brake he might have 13. If Brock had been as quick as Richo in 88 then he might have 14.

Moffat, Johnson, Grice etc all have similar sad tales as does Brock (74, 75) but enduros are not a measure of the man as much as they are an indication of the reiabiliy and pace from the team and car.

It is a sad indication of true pace when we can only easure 1000km enduros from 1987 backwards.

[ehast13]

Don’t forget he was initially hired for his rally abilities (anyone remember the Round Australia win with the then new Commodores),

You mean in in 1969???????
Driving a monaro at bathurst???????????????
Colin Bond was the man when it came to HDT rallying - 3 championships

[JC]

Originally Posted by ehast13

I think JC got a little offended and forgot to look at the post objectivly.

The only post that offended me is the one I just quoted. How would you know how I looked at your original post - other than with utter contempt? All I said is that you are entitled to your opinion, but I did not share it, and then expanded on that so that you could see the reasons I rate him the greatest touring car driver. Objective? I am a Ford fan, and Brock predominantly drove Holdens - how is that not objective.

And if Brock is/was not the greatest touring car driver in the world, then who is? And by what standard do you measure that? Measured by the standard of the driver who has won more of Australia's "Great Race" (Bathurst) than any other, as well as touring car championships, around Australia rallies etc, then Brock is it. But I am happy to hear who you would nominate - just one driver, not several; and not based on ifs, buts and maybes. Given a persuasive argument, I may even change my mind, but to my recollection, there has been no better driver!

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by JC

And if Brock is/was not the greatest touring car driver in the world, then who is? And by what standard do you measure that? Measured by the standard of the driver who has won more of Australia's "Great Race" (Bathurst) than any other, as well as touring car championships, around Australia rallies etc, then Brock is it. But I am happy to hear who you would nominate - just one driver, not several; and not based on ifs, buts and maybes. Given a persuasive argument, I may even change my mind, but to my recollection, there has been no better driver!

Statistically, for Australian Touring Car success... Dick Johnson and Mark Skaife are on equal terms... five championships each... alot more then Brock's 3. He won one race alot. He didn't win the entire championship alot.

On a sheer talent basis... I'd say Marcos Ambrose was the best thing ever to come from Australia. But he didn't stay long enough to amass a better record here.

That's before going to an international level... with guys like Mattias Ekström, for example.

[Aaron_EF8]

At least someone remembered Dick Johnson's 5 ATCC titles!

What is the question again? Best driver, or best touring car driver?

And if Brock is/was not the greatest touring car driver in the world, then who is? And by what standard do you measure that? Measured by the standard of the driver who has won more of Australia's "Great Race" (Bathurst) than any other, as well as touring car championships, around Australia rallies etc, then Brock is it.

Brock has been the best ambassador for touring car racing without a doubt. But Repco Reliability Trials aren't touring car races. Colin Bond has won more, as well as Australian Rally Championships, F5000's, Sports Sedans etc. Bond doesn't have the record of Brock because he moved around.

Building fast cars doesn't make him a good driver, that makes him a good car builder.

IMO, there is one other important piece of criteria that needs to be remembered when talking about 'best drivers'. The ability to stay alive when driving a car. If that simple fact is ignored, then can we ignore things like The Rock, the Eggenberger Sierras, the 92 Bathurst, Radisich's luck, Setons luck, the FIA rules in the late 80's etc etc?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not into knocking him at all, he was an amazing person, certainly over-rated as a driver at times, but that's not his fault, he never gloated, his supporters did/do.

[bingoTE50]

Well , never before such a controversial subject .
Is the question the best , quickest , the best team , blah ,blah ,blah...
He must have been good we are talking about him !!
How can you measure greatness ? Is Schumacher Great ,or was he in a great team...
If Jack Brabham was the age of Peter Brock and competed in touring cars regularly ,would he have been better.
One thing was IMO was he was certainly an ideas man. If I come up to you in 1970- 1971 and said we are racing a 6 cyl car at Bathurst after v8's had won the previous few years, would you go for it ? I doubt it . What about coming up with HDT with John Harvey as a way of making a buck after the " Supercar scare" which flew in the face of the conservatives of the time. Is HSV happy - I reckon !! The Polariser was not his idea , his swami .. the guy at his funeral , Alan someone I think , who was in his head ,as he was being a bit alternative due to outside influences ,come up with it , but he went for it..

Peter Brock was a star that people wanted a piece of , and he did not make the money people believed he did , he got ripped because of the trust he gave people. Yeah he played the field a bit , but the women were into it , hey it was the seventies man...

Right to the end it cost him.. The guy that navigated for him when he crashed , from sources I know of ,was a cling on , and has zero ability at that level , but he was trusted . ..
RIP PB I say.... One of the Greats in my eyes..

[xbgs351]

He was a great touring car driver, but he never proved himself in a racing car. He only ever raced in two ANF2 Championship races, coming second to Leo Geoghegan in one and seventh in another. He did better in a handful of non-championship races.

[ehast13]

P. Brock never chose to race a six cylinder torana. He was a hired gun.

Okay JC. I will try to be objective

Peter nearly always had the best car. Especially from late seventies to mid eighties (six of his bathurst wins). He lacked competition in 78 and won the championship. In 79 a privateer called Bob Morris beat him in an A9x without the might of factory tyre deals, big money Marlboro Backing.

In the 1980 atcc, he had no real competition. A camaro that had drim rear brakes was the most he had.

He never won a championship when he had competition. His first title was brilliant but with two rounds remaining and Moffat the only challnger, Moff took off overseas and built his Brut 33 falc.

Apart from his Austin A30 (a dog of a car by all reports) when did Brock actually build cars. Harry Firth, John Sheppard, Larry Perkins, John Harvey etc built his race cars and apart from being the public face of his organization and taking credit for shock tuning what did he build.

This being said - The guy was gifted. He was the only driver to have top level cars from 1969 to retirement. He wouldn't have the job if he wasn't good. But seriously, when did he win against any decent competition? His lucky 1987 win. Tony longhurst overtook Brock in the wet with only 3 working brakes. But everyone goes on about how good Brock was in the wet that day!

His team had good strategy that day and knew rulebook back to front (including dodgy FIA pit lane rules which cost Seton, Bowe, Fury etc the win).

He never won Bathurst against any decent competition except through luck (Bathurst 72 - Ford Brakes, Moff's two penalties, French's penalties, Gibson's roll over etc)

I would nominate Richo as the best (a view shared by MOTOR magazine a few years back who rated Brabham first, Richo second).

I his first Bathurst he finished third with no brakes - in the Rain! He dragged John Goss' falcon to the lead at Sandown and Bathurst before Goss ritually blew it to peices.

HDT saw the skill and he became the co driver for brock and could hop in a car he hadn't driven for 12 months and match brock's times.

Went to the slower BMW team but showed his skills - delivering championship in 85 and 87. Team mates with Brock in 88 and SPANKED him. Dragged the HR 31 to a championship then got a dose of the Brock Silver spoon when he got the GTR. Finished ahead of skaife in 93 championship.

While brock struggles around mid field with the Volvo 850 super tourer, Richo took it to the front. No wonder they replaced Brock with Richo.

Brock retired but never had the pace again. Richo always did!

Now, my memories of Brock's greatness - 94 championship, dragging HRT to the front and being the only mathematical chance of winning the title from skaife in the 2nd last round.

Bathurst 97 - leaving the field behind (albeit in a faster car but not THAT much faster)

His 1990 pole lap in the Sierra.

HIs 1985 chase of the Jaguar inthe dying laps.

The fact the he rarely spun and NEver squandered a race car.

I think Richo was better. Tom Walkinshaw would be equal. Grice would be faster but not a complete package. Johnson was as fast at lakeside and bathurst. Moff in his younger days was pretty good and Pete Geoghan showed brock a thing or two in sports sedans. Skaife is the ultimate proffesional but not as naturally gifted. JOhn Bowe was as faster or faster but not that good int he rain.

Touring car drivers (Aus and NZ) MY top ten (A LOT MORE THAN TEN)- feel free to disagree I am open to argument as I am not sure I have them in the right order

1 - Jim Richards
2 - Peter Brock
=3 - Frank Gardner/Pete Geoghan
=4 Mark Skaife
=4 - Allan Moffat
5 - Dick JOhnson/Harry Firth/Tander
6 - Colin Bond/Bob Jane/Allan GRice
7 - Bob Morris (pre 81 accident)/Craig Lowndes (wil davison and jamie whincup? too soon to tell)
8 - Glenn Seton/Steve JOhnson/Bruce McPhee
9 - Todd Kelly/Doug Chivas
10 - Rick Kelly/John Goss

[Rev28K]

Originally Posted by ehast13

Don’t forget he was initially hired for his rally abilities (anyone remember the Round Australia win with the then new Commodores),

You mean in in 1969???????
Driving a monaro at bathurst???????????????
Colin Bond was the man when it came to HDT rallying - 3 championships

Yep, originally hired for Rallycross “and other things” and his first drive for HDT was an Alpine rally even though he had mainly been doing circuit racing before then. There was no doubt that he was no. 2 to Colin Bond’s no. 1 status when he started at HDT. But there is nothing wrong with having a good driver as a backup to your no. 1 and act as an encouragement to push the lead driver along a bit. Wasn’t there a time where he had to miss out on a circuit race because of rally commitments? That’s one of the reasons (as well as injury) why you’d need two good drivers in the team. Bond was pretty good and I’d rate him as one of the best Aussie guys to combine rally and circuit driving at a high level (George Fury did well too and Rick bates seems capable).

It is very hard to compare drivers from different eras and levels with different equipment. Taxi racing is a step back from single seater racing. Think of the open wheelers that have competed in “road” cars when they could fit it in their packed schedules – A.J. Foyt, Jackie Stewart, Gurney, Mark Donahue (a personal favorite, you’ve got to read “The unfair advantage”), Jim Clark, Mario Andretti, Frank Gardiner, etc and it is very hard to pick a standout. And how do you rate the best? Someone who is a showman behind the wheel (Beechey, Villeneuve, Alesi) or someone who strokes it along enough just to win championships (someone along the lines of Alain Prost)

[ehast13]

Cool. i have afair bit of stuff about Brock at Hume Weir and stuff about his A30 but then I must have agap between that and his 1969 monaro stuff. Where could I find this stuff? Old WHEELS or Racing Weekly?

The sad thing is I do belive Peter was exraordinarily gifted behind the wheel but I just couldn't take the "best driver in the world - ever" BS that the journalist was pumping out.

I still rate him second is AUS/NZ but how do you compare to British stars of the 60's/70's or German drivers?

Does anybody have any number on who won the most SPA 24 Hours. OR NUrburgring enduros?