Best "headgear" for NA AU's?

ten[A]cio[U]s · 07-09-2008, 07:10 PM

Howday,

Just a few question about the best cam for my AU. I am going to join the NA squad to try and get some AU's into the 13's. Im pretty sure i wont get there easily (if ever) but i would like to try.

I want send the head away to get some work done and a freshen up. When it comes back i want to install all the best bits i can in ways of rockers, springs, and cam.

I am pretty keen on these monstor surecams that are starting to show up. I like the power ability in them, i like the reliability and tunability of them, and i LOVE the sound they make. The idle/rev sounds tough!

I am just wondering whats the biggest cam put into an AU that lets the car remain streetable but offers lots of go?

How much am i looking at for a surecam?

Whats the best springs, rockers etc should i be looking at?

Whats the best place to get this gear from?

Regards, Matt.

blackers10 · 07-09-2008, 07:45 PM

i know atomic do some heavy duty springs for SOHC 4ltr motors

give them an email or ring and im sure they could point you in the right direction

HLC · 07-09-2008, 08:47 PM

why going the NA route matt? your turbo install was so close to being finished?!?! and that would have got you in the 13's for a bucketload less?????

in saying that, whats happening with the turbo gear now lol

ten[A]cio[U]s · 07-09-2008, 09:30 PM

Long story short.. RTA issue.. Restricted Licence.. No turbo.... Sigh

Yeah i may have run a mid 13 straight up and a high 12 with work.. but i cant now.. Sigh Sigh hehe

LG · 07-09-2008, 11:24 PM

Seeing as your in NSW, speak to Joe at Crescent Motorsport.

Otherwise the really only off the shelf headwork is JMM.

XR6_4EVA · 08-09-2008, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LG

Seeing as your in NSW, speak to Joe at Crescent Motorsport.

Otherwise the really only off the shelf headwork is JMM.

Alot of interesting stories about peoples dealings with JMM.

That aside, JMM can do a good range of cam's, headwork, pre-worked head swaps, intake/exhaust manifold swaps, (race-series intake/exhaust manifolds have got a good reputation, killed the paceys).

They'll do just about anything in head work...

**Stav** · 08-09-2008, 03:55 PM

Hmm..if you come up to Sydney let me know and you can have a little go on the wagon. Dont mean to brag but I havent heard another six like it or for that matter any modern v8.Its funny

. Literally earth shaking!!lol

Learn from my mistakes..

1/ Get tunability.It is highly unlikely that a tuner will give you the best tune.Only you can give you the best tune.Without tunability the car will not idle!! It will run crazy rich.
2/ Chat to Joe at crescent.
3/ stallie
4/ lsd 3.73 to 4:11s in the butt.

:

**Stav** · 08-09-2008, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6_4EVA

Alot of interesting stories about peoples dealings with JMM.

That aside, JMM can do a good range of cam's, headwork, pre-worked head swaps, intake/exhaust manifold swaps, (race-series intake/exhaust manifolds have got a good reputation, killed the paceys).

They'll do just about anything in head work...

Ive seen dev 5 head/ cammed cars here in SYDNEY jump on dynos against the dev4 cam only wagon old motor. The results were no greater that 131 rwkws as was the wagons power. I would do some research into some of the quicker sixes on the forum and then buy your parts.

My mate grechie with his e series installed a wade cam of sorts and persisted to refine the car.He kicked asss and pulled 13.75 et. Find the qquickest cars and do the research.This is your best guide.This will make your combo more representative of your choices.

I have race series headers but have feel the inclination to put my angle grinder to them as they need improvements at these power levels.

Sox · 08-09-2008, 04:29 PM

A DEV5 cam from JMM is what you want.
If you have the right head work done, and have a good exhaust system, you won't need a tune. It will run nice as is.
I would get the head from JMM, they know what needs doing to suit the cam.
Use their springs, etc to match.

If the rest of your car is up to it, then 13's will be easy enough.

You'll need 3.7 or 4.1 gears with a tightly packed LS centre.

If you're keeping the slushomatic, then you'll also need a high stall converter.
At least 2500rpm.

Personally I would ditch the slushy and slip in a manual.

If you don't already have extractors/sports exhaust, then the JMM race headers and a 2.5" exhaust with decent free flowing mufflers is the shot.

When fitting the head, make certain the vernier gear is clocked up spot on. If you're not sure how this is done, find someone who can do it properly, because this is why most cam upgrades don't go as well as they could.

Otherwise these things are a snap to make go quick, the is a lot of potential in these engines. Just use the right parts from the beginning and don't cut corners.

Sox · 08-09-2008, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stav

Ive seen dev 5 head/ cammed cars here in SYDNEY jump on dynos against the dev4 cam only wagon old motor. The results were no greater that 131 rwkws as was the wagons power. I would do some research into some of the quicker sixes on the forum and then buy your parts.

Come off it Stav, you know this is due to bad installation.

My old XH with a DEV5 pulled 175rwkw on 2 different dynos, one of the times your car and Jonbays car only pulled 140-150 on the same day.

The DEV5 works fine if it's installed properly.

**Stav** · 08-09-2008, 05:32 PM

Chances are they were bad installations.But there were quite a few of them. In any case people focus far too much on the cam for power or lack of.
A cam gives the engine the potential for an engine to perform better. A cam cannot reach full potential if...

The heads are restrictive,intake is restricitive or too big,exhaust is too retrictive or has a poor components. These are just a few holdbacks for underperforming engines.

Your xh ute put out similar power to the wagon on the same dyno a few years apart and yes mph and 1/4 miles are comaparably similar.

The dev 5 cam can idle well.I saw JonBays wagon witht the dev 5 idling better than mine.In saying that from dev3hl to dev 5 gave him no difference in power even with headwork.

HLC · 08-09-2008, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazy-au

Long story short.. RTA issue.. Restricted Licence.. No turbo.... Sigh

Yeah i may have run a mid 13 straight up and a high 12 with work.. but i cant now.. Sigh Sigh hehe

yer only a few months younger than me? and ive been off my p's since october last year

: what did you do to get a restricted licence?

ten[A]cio[U]s · 08-09-2008, 07:07 PM

As i said.. big mistake. Next time i speak to you a shall explain mate. Not something im willing to openly speak about over a forum sorry.

I am getting a set of hi-tech extractors, high flow cat, and a straight through muffler fitted (already have 2.5") on thursday.

I have spoken to a lot of people about these extractors, and was explained that then longer the extrator the better release of gases basically. Some headers have a short amount of length so they bolt up to the factory dump. This is so more people buy them becuase it appears cheaper, but offer minimal benefit over the factory exhaust manifold.

I had a look at the hi-tech and there a clever design. There travel in a tri-y design, that meet up well past the facotry cat position. This in term is meant to add flow and prevents restictive build up in the different connections.

From what i have seen, been told, read these header SHOULD work very well. Unlike JMM and pacies that have been proven, Hi-Tech in theory are meant to exceed the flow of pacies.

I may get flamed, and people may go on about what others have. In the end of the day, my car, my money, and im willing to try something different hehe

Sox · 08-09-2008, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stav

Chances are they were bad installations.But there were quite a few of them.

Yeh, and all of them would have had some fundamental thing wrong.
I know what kind of power a properly set up DEV5 kit can make.

Quote:

In any case people focus far too much on the cam for power or lack of.
A cam gives the engine the potential for an engine to perform better. A cam cannot reach full potential if...

The heads are restrictive,intake is restricitive or too big,exhaust is too retrictive or has a poor components. These are just a few holdbacks for underperforming engines.

Naturally, that's why I suggested going for the entire DEV5 head, and race headers.
Virtually any decent custom intake and sports exhaust will then do the job.

Quote:

Your xh ute put out similar power to the wagon on the same dyno a few years apart and yes mph and 1/4 miles are comaparably similar.

That's right, and mine had a standard ECU with no after market piggyback controller.

I don't think it's fair to say that the DEV5's you saw pull low numbers are representative of what they can actually do.

Quote:

The dev 5 cam can idle well.I saw JonBays wagon witht the dev 5 idling better than mine.

Both of my DEV5's have (and are) idling very well. No stalling, and only a slight roughness.

Quote:

In saying that from dev3hl to dev 5 gave him no difference in power even with headwork.

Something else was wrong then.
I'm surprised that you're so quick to criticise the product when most of the time it is clearly something else that is wrong.

ten[A]cio[U]s · 08-09-2008, 07:16 PM

Im also speaking to a transmission shop about where i should be heading. Im going to basically tell him what i plan for the car, and what i plan to do.

I will need to let him know of any head work, the cam specs, the exhaust sytem, the suspenion, the engine mods, the intake mods etc.

I will also need to let him know what i use the car for, how much/far i drive it, how often i will be competing in it etc

From this he will calculate the best modification to do to my tranmission and diff to get the best result, and the best drivability.

This will give me a good strip car, but a sensible, tidy and fun street car.

From what we spoke about today. I will be going 3.9's and a 2700rpm stally. While he is at it he will strengthen and build up too handle lots of power and lots of abuse.

**Stav** · 08-09-2008, 08:24 PM

I am not making rash decisions.Dev 5 can hold its own as we know.However the ones I have seen here in Sydney on that dyno werent that impressive.I remember the day I met you ..I was soo looking forward to seeing it on the dyno. It was unfortunate about the valve spring letting go on the way down.:( and it didnt go on.

My car in auto form an the ute in manual form .This means we can add 10 rwkws to mine if it were a manual. Your car was running an xr6 ecu from memory which would have also helped to correct your air fuel ratios.

Crazy au.You are on the right path..

ayeyew · 08-09-2008, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazy-au

Im also speaking to a transmission shop about where i should be heading. Im going to basically tell him what i plan for the car, and what i plan to do.

I will need to let him know of any head work, the cam specs, the exhaust sytem, the suspenion, the engine mods, the intake mods etc.

I will also need to let him know what i use the car for, how much/far i drive it, how often i will be competing in it etc

From this he will calculate the best modification to do to my tranmission and diff to get the best result, and the best drivability.

This will give me a good strip car, but a sensible, tidy and fun street car.

From what we spoke about today. I will be going 3.9's and a 2700rpm stally. While he is at it he will strengthen and build up too handle lots of power and lots of abuse.

Bloody hell i'm looking forward to this

I would be doing exactly the same thing as you if i wasn't getting married in 19 days and paying off a $40,000 wedding!!

Imagine that $40,000 on my AU!!

At least i have $7,000 tucked away for when the 4.8L CMS motor comes about! (If that will be enough.. I don't know)

Sox · 09-09-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stav

I am not making rash decisions.Dev 5 can hold its own as we know.However the ones I have seen here in Sydney on that dyno werent that impressive.

I'm not doubting what you've seen Stav, what I'm saying is that these low power units are not representative of what power the DEV5 can produce.

If you know the DEV5 kit can produce 175kw when installed correctly, why would you criticise the product when you see it produce much less power? Why would you doubt the product and not the installation? Think about your logic here, why such a dramatic difference in power from the same product?

Let's say you sold a car audio system to a customer which they installed themselves and it sounded like crap? They wired the subs out of phase, selected the wrong crossover frequencies, mounted the tweeters under the seat, etc.
You know the system can sound superb, yet the customer is on a forum telling everyone it sounds like crap and insinuating that Stav's gear is sus.

How would you react to that?

Quote:

My car in auto form an the ute in manual form .This means we can add 10 rwkws to mine if it were a manual. Your car was running an xr6 ecu from memory which would have also helped to correct your air fuel ratios.

And you claim your 3" exhaust gives you more power, and you claim your water pipe intake gives you more power, and you have the piggy back ECU.
So it's possible that all things being equal excepting our cam and head, the two may have produced the same or very similar power figures.

Not bad for a cam which you claim only produces 130rwkw.

Come on mate, you know better than that.

**Stav** · 09-09-2008, 08:14 AM

You are pretty spot on. As you know after all these years I have gathered a bit more knowledge on these cars.
What astounded me the most is the lack of mechanical knowledge from alot(but not all) of the more popular performance places including exhaust shops. Watching JonBays get his headwork and new cam produced 10 rwkws less.Then he ended up buying/installing a dev 5 to match the dev3 hl power .I was dissapointed for my friend who we spent alot of hours meeting,talking and improving these cars.

Truth is that your knowledge and the the dev 5 package made it all happen. You would have made a bucket load if you set up a shop and became an agent. I cant imagine youd let a car go out that was not performing.

StealthAu · 09-09-2008, 11:32 AM

Regardless olf the product, I wont deal with JMM. Sent them a few emails trying to arange to spend some money with them, no response. All I asked for was price, turn over and payment details on a dev5 heand and cam package, they must of been (and still are 3 months later) too busy to make a sale

Sox · 09-09-2008, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stav

You are pretty spot on. As you know after all these years I have gathered a bit more knowledge on these cars.
What astounded me the most is the lack of mechanical knowledge from alot(but not all) of the more popular performance places including exhaust shops. Watching JonBays get his headwork and new cam produced 10 rwkws less.Then he ended up buying/installing a dev 5 to match the dev3 hl power .I was dissapointed for my friend who we spent alot of hours meeting,talking and improving these cars.

A friend of a good friend once needed my help to clock up his cam in a 5L windsor many years ago.
He had assembled the complete bottom end and just needed to have the cam spot on.
I set up his dial indicator, threw on a degree wheel blah blah blah, and showed him the exact procedure to degree in a cam.
He was very appreciative and his car ended up being a little rocket. All good and well right? Sort of.

The ironic part of this story is that he was a qualified motor mechanic, and I'm not.
The lesson is, that even the so called qualified don't always know what they're doing.

Quote:

Truth is that your knowledge and the the dev 5 package made it all happen.

It certainly helped, I think the package is a good thing, but it does need careful installation.

Quote:

You would have made a bucket load if you set up a shop and became an agent. I cant imagine youd let a car go out that was not performing.

I'm sure you do the same in your current line of work.

Sox · 09-09-2008, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StealthAu

Regardless olf the product, I wont deal with JMM. Sent them a few emails trying to arange to spend some money with them, no response. All I asked for was price, turn over and payment details on a dev5 heand and cam package, they must of been (and still are 3 months later) too busy to make a sale

Did you at least phone them to even make sure they received the emails?
I know I do if I don't receive a reply within 3-4 days when sending emails to anyone.

ten[A]cio[U]s · 09-09-2008, 05:28 PM

Just wondering from those who have delt with JMM, the DEV Race-Series Cylinder Head for $1600. Does this include all exhaust/intake valves, any porting? What does this involve?

Also would this be the best option for the dev5 cam? Or would other recommend going something along the line of stav/oed666's cam?

falzoony · 09-09-2008, 05:59 PM

Someone sent me a link to this thread a while back when I asked about JMM gear, might be worthwhile reading it.
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...ock+motorsport

EDIT: ok it doesn't seem to be there anymore.

The Mighty Red · 09-09-2008, 06:19 PM

JMM seems to be very hit and miss.....I dont know how many times I have read where forum members are excited before they take there cars to jmm only to be dissapointed when they come out because there pride and joy doesnt perform like it is supposed to after the mods and on top of that the car suddenly has issues.

If I was thinking about modding my XR6 I would talk to as many people as possible that have actually had JMM work done and get there opinions and find out what works and what doesnt........

Casper's XR6 seemed to be heading in the right direction with JMM mods until he suddenly dropped JMM and went over to G&D....but I dont know what happened there maybe he had a bad experience .

phibza_XR6 · 09-09-2008, 06:32 PM

i have had a few things done to my ute by jmm over the past year and have not had any dramas. So far they have installed race series exhaust system, their air intake pipe, spark plug leads and plugs, have had there heavy duty clutch installed, a new lsd with 3.73 diff gears.
My ute has the vct motor in it and so far besides the 3.73 diff gears and new clutch, it pulled 151rwkw on two different dynos. I am very interested in trying to get the best out of it NA and next on the list is cam and head work. Has anyone played with cams in the vct motor?

**Stav** · 09-09-2008, 08:24 PM

Didnt want to seem to be paying out on their stuff. I got 131 rwkws an ran a 14.7 with their race headers and dev 4 cam only.The stuff works.Just surprised at my observations so far.Maybe people with their gear should be posting their times above the dyno sheet .

StealthAu · 09-09-2008, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sox

Did you at least phone them to even make sure they received the emails?
I know I do if I don't receive a reply within 3-4 days when sending emails to anyone.

Nope, with all the different options I'm happy to go elsewhere if I don't get a reply. The email I sent it to is what was listed on their site. It is kind of a good thing though, cause I looked around and going off the prices listed on the JMM site, they seem to be a bit of a rip off compaired to their oposition. Who pays nearly $500 for a regrind? On top of that, they don't have any specs listed anywhere that I could find, was I just looking in the wrong place?

ten[A]cio[U]s · 11-09-2008, 05:32 PM

Just got the extrators, high flow cat, and little muffler installed. Didnt think it would make too much difference as the car was running like crap. So i just took it home. First impressions car sounded a fair bit different.

I replumbed the catch can and a few things and the car started running sweet again (lump but sweet)

So i went for a cruse in it and wow. Feels a lot more responsive and alive. Then over 3000rpm its a high pitch crackle. Sound awesome haha. Very happy with how their going and its the first few hours haha!

**Stav** · 11-09-2008, 06:00 PM

Awesome