VE GTS 427 385kw here October 07

[Eaturbo]

Alot of people say you dont need big power to have a performance car, but how many performance sedans do you know that are true performance cars that dont have a heap of power. M5 373kw,CLS55 AMG 350kw, CLS63 AMG 380kw, SRT8 317kw, GTS 307kw, AUDI S6 320kw, AUDI RS4 309kw. I dont see to many performance large 4 door sedans with Good handling and low power outputs. If its large and handles good its a luxury car not a performance car

[ED Classic]

Originally Posted by Eaturbo

Alot of people say you dont need big power to have a performance car, but how many performance sedans do you know that are true performance cars that dont have a heap of power. M5 373kw,CLS55 AMG 350kw, CLS63 AMG 380kw, SRT8 317kw, GTS 307kw, AUDI S6 320kw, AUDI RS4 309kw. I dont see to many performance large 4 door sedans with Good handling and low power outputs. If its large and handles good its a luxury car not a performance car

Exactly!!

And to take it one step further, its ironic that alot of those saying that they couldnt care about power are putting exhausts and boltons etc etc.

Face facts the next model will and should always be faster and improved.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by colossus

Translation:

Seriously, everybody no-one (read I, as I am jealous) cares about a $120,000 HSV

They make 380KW and cost $120,000

My shitebox that no-one would look twice at makes 168KW and cost $10,000

I don't care about getting a scratch on my car because it is a hunk of junk

Would you rather 12, $10,000 8 year old grandpa spec Fairmont's or 1 $120,000 purpose built performance car that I would be too scared to take out of my garage as I am 16 and can't afford or don't know about the concept of insurance.

My point was. As stated earlier by others.

Is that 120,000 dollars is an excessive amount to pay for something that is essentially a family car.

The advantage I've always seen with Holdens and Fords is that you get a lot of performance for the amount of money you invest but this new HSV seems somewhat ridiculous.

Good on Holden for trying to aim for the high priced Euros and I'm sure the car will attract CEO's and Powerball winners but for many people the Clubsport/GT bracket is the more relevant one.

There seems to come a point in cars where the increase in performance starts to come at a hefty cost.

Owning a sportsbike the amount people spend on cars to reach modest performance levels compared to a bike seems ridiculous IMO

The most expensive production bikes are around 50,000 dollars (MV Augusta) and 20,000 dollars can get you a very quick Japanese sports bike.

I'm sure there is plenty of millionares on here who can unload cash on domestic cars but for normal working people I have seen it plenty of times they wait their whole lives buy their brand new car and never enjoy it because they don't want to scratch it etc.

My point (drunken it may have been) is that I don't give a stuff about the 100,000 category as for the price you pay the performance isn't that mind boggling.

Thought this thread was already finished and the conclusion was that Holden is going to exploit it's advantageous GM catalogue to build a supercar that will be a huge marketing stunt but will most likely make people cry when they realise it's Holden and therefore they are going to have to top it up with oil every 5 kilometres.
Ford in response are most likely going to get their best minds and come up with the most KICK *** stripe set you have ever seen.

:

[jdg]

Seriously everybody who gives a crap about a 120,000 HSV?

They get 380kw outof 120,000

I get 168kw out of 10,000

I dont giv a fruk about getn a scratch on my car.

Would you rather 12 10,000 dola toys or 1 120,000 dola toy that ur too scared 2 take out of ur garage?

$120, 000 is starting to get to the stage where if you can afford to spend $120, 000 on any car, let alone an Australian built car, then you can afford to get a few scratches fixed etc...

[jdg]

Alot of people say you dont need big power to have a performance car, but how many performance sedans do you know that are true performance cars that dont have a heap of power. M5 373kw,CLS55 AMG 350kw, CLS63 AMG 380kw, SRT8 317kw, GTS 307kw, AUDI S6 320kw, AUDI RS4 309kw. I dont see to many performance large 4 door sedans with Good handling and low power outputs. If its large and handles good its a luxury car not a performance car

Wrx Sti, Evo IX to name a few. Theyre not large but theyre 4 door sedans...

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by sleekism

My point was. As stated earlier by others.

Is that 120,000 dollars is an excessive amount to pay for something that is essentially a family car.

The advantage I've always seen with Holdens and Fords is that you get a lot of performance for the amount of money you invest but this new HSV seems somewhat ridiculous.

Good on Holden for trying to aim for the high priced Euros and I'm sure the car will attract CEO's and Powerball winners but for many people the Clubsport/GT bracket is the more relevant one.

There seems to come a point in cars where the increase in performance starts to come at a hefty cost.

Owning a sportsbike the amount people spend on cars to reach modest performance levels compared to a bike seems ridiculous IMO

The most expensive production bikes are around 50,000 dollars (MV Augusta) and 20,000 dollars can get you a very quick Japanese sports bike.

I'm sure there is plenty of millionares on here who can unload cash on domestic cars but for normal working people I have seen it plenty of times they wait their whole lives buy their brand new car and never enjoy it because they don't want to scratch it etc.

My point (drunken it may have been) is that I don't give a stuff about the 100,000 category as for the price you pay the performance isn't that mind boggling.

Thought this thread was already finished and the conclusion was that Holden is going to exploit it's advantageous GM catalogue to build a supercar that will be a huge marketing stunt but will most likely make people cry when they realise it's Holden and therefore they are going to have to top it up with oil every 5 kilometres.
Ford in response are most likely going to get their best minds and come up with the most KICK *** stripe set you have ever seen.

:

well i got to say . i'm not sure this GTS will be a family car , but maybe because of the size of it's engine , it may have that charectoristic.
i was only thinking today driving around the shops and to an art gallary, that the GT felt only just a family car, because it's stock suspension; even though quiet , feels the bumps, the driveline has various harmonics and vibes that are felt in the cab , and the induction and exhaust sounds a bit racey, on top of the fact that its hard not to go hard in it it has the sign of a 5.4 litre that is pretty worked . if the GTS HAS THIS CHARECTOR , then it wont be the type of car you drop the kids off to school in , the lollypop lady mightn't appreciate licorice lines over the crossing . unless of course it has a lame setup.
seriously too much more power over what we are buying already , and we will definately need torque tags , and only top end, otherwise mummy will be taking poles out on the way to school.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by jdg

Wrx Sti, Evo IX to name a few. Theyre not large but theyre 4 door sedans...

BLAAHHH !!!! I dont have time for 3 gear changes before i get to the otherside of the traffic lights . i'd rather have more power and gears that allow me to drive without my hand on the gearstick for hills etc .

[burnz]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

well i got to say mummy will be taking poles out on the way to school.

i can imagine it now haaa hhaaa

[Mr. CVE]

well a M3 is a more expensive version of a small family car, same as the M5 yet these people pay over 200k for a upgraded version.
Don't stress holden will sell these to the market of people who can't afford M5's I don't know if it will be profitable for HSV, but more of a market ploy. Look at the VN Group A that was not profitable either.

[Iphido]

All HSV has to do is provide it with a normal manual transmission.

Given that NO european sport sedans come with pure manual transmissions anymore (AMG Mercs sedans are all autos, BMW M5 is spaztronic wingdings).. Mercs are cruisers, and the BMW is a frigging playstation game with other flaws too.

Plenty of people will stump up cash for a car with 380kw, a manual transmission and alright handling. Even owners of expensive european cars can appricate Australian simplicity when they have to fork out $9,000 to replace the hydraulic pump that closes the doors and boot in a Merc. Australian cars make good day to day hacks. Rack up the kms, get stratches, hit a roo, then trade it in 12 months time. Plus people don't think your some super tool ****er.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Iphido

All HSV has to do is provide it with a normal manual transmission.

Given that NO european sport sedans come with pure manual transmissions anymore (AMG Mercs sedans are all autos, BMW M5 is spaztronic wingdings).. Mercs are cruisers, and the BMW is a frigging playstation game with other flaws too.

Plenty of people will stump up cash for a car with 380kw, a manual transmission and alright handling. Even owners of expensive european cars can appricate Australian simplicity when they have to fork out $9,000 to replace the hydraulic pump that closes the doors and boot in a Merc. Australian cars make good day to day hacks. Rack up the kms, get stratches, hit a roo, then trade it in 12 months time. Plus people don't think your some super tool ****er.

M5 is available with a six-speed manual, just not in Australia yet. Though it is a far, far slower car with the manual transmission... because it doesn't have the superfast shifting (60ms or 0.06 sec) 7spd sequential gearbox that makes up for its stupid girly torque peak (520Nm @ 6100rpm).

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by chich

When it comes to the V8 Ford simply have no answers..

A very subjective point..........

One that can only be truthfully made when you have driven and experienced both products............
Reading the marketing hype does not become premise for reality. People's perceptions and expectations are all very different and there really isn't much difference between a VE R8 and a BFGT..........you'd be splitting hairs..........I've driven both and although I'm not a fully fledged TRACK tester, the differences are NOT quantum leaps apart. It really comes down to BRAND bias...........it's that close.

If you were referring to the slated introduction of the HSV 427 this year..........then yes, I will whole heartedly agree with you...........but remember, this car will not be in the public eye as much as the "bread and Butter" HSV / FPV cars, so I don't really think it will have any mainstream effect for either company.

But.............If I had the cash..........I reckon I'd consider it........I just like BIG BALLSY V8 powered cars and especially the localy built variety. I don't care if its HSV or FPV.............what ever company offers it, KUDOS to them and I do hope it sells when its released as it will be a sure sign that the AUS public has the capacity, the cash and the appreciation to buy such a car.

Its also interesting to note in this discussion that all other car makers can manufacture and sell a variety of powerful 6 and V8 powered cars..........BMW, PORSCHE, MERCEDES, AUDI...........they sell in droves in the AUSTRALIAN market and there is no critical response from anyone.

As soon as FPV / HSV engage in a similar Kw / Performance WAR, The public and Govt are more than willing to chastise, criticise, and sternly frown upon such rivalry ???????????????????

I wonder if FPV are caught up in this political web and are carefully treading the line. A more powerful offering may well indeed spell the end of the locally built performance market. Are they protecting themselves.........or are HSV so aloof and confident that they no longer see FPV as a major future rival and are striving for potential new markets.

After all, not all cashed up execs, CEO's, Business owners, and self made succesful Trades persons in AUSTRALIA, strive to own an M5 an A8, an AMG or 2 seater PORSCHE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kinksta]

i cant wait to see what this looks and goes like, sounds very interesting!!

[ED Classic]

Originally Posted by jdg

Wrx Sti, Evo IX to name a few. Theyre not large but theyre 4 door sedans...

They are claimed at 206 KW but everyone knows they are significantly more than that, which is big power especially soon as they (as you say) are not large.

Also I think he reffers to more supercar territory of your well under 5 sec 0-100, more so than the performance car segmant.

[1TUFFUTE]

this HSV car will be more at home against a ford GT-40 supercar for that price. As if ud compare it to an Xr8. Its not even aussie anyway so i shrug my shoulders, show a little respect an forget about it....

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

this HSV car will be more at home against a ford GT-40 supercar for that price. As if ud compare it to an Xr8. Its not even aussie anyway so i shrug my shoulders, show a little respect an forget about it....

Its about as Aussie as our US parts bin 5.4 V8 with a German Auto and American Manual gearbox... you mean that Aussie car?

Neither Ford or Holden are close to being fully Australian, and they never will be. At the moment the BFII and VE are as Australian as it gets. Platforms designed here and built here.

[DougM]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

this HSV car will be more at home against a ford GT-40 supercar for that price. As if ud compare it to an Xr8. Its not even aussie anyway so i shrug my shoulders, show a little respect an forget about it....

Youv'e got to be kidding!!!!

The Corvette doesn't beat the Ford GT with the same engine and less weight!!!

The Corvette does come close to the GT in acceleration, but the overall package doesn't compare to the GT......It is half the cost of the GT......Give me the GT anyday!!!!!!

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by b2tf

* I am so over the "HSV do it so why wont FPV" crap it is not funny. Again see point one and insert phrase "my dick is bigger than yours". If you really can't bear the shame of driving your 290kW GT when the guy down the road has 307kW, either whack on a blower and mod it, or be grateful for what you have as plenty don't.

There is a problem with this statement and it goes along the lines of why again should Ford buyers be forced into the position of voiding warranty to appease an image problem created by the manufacturer. It’s a comment that moves away from the GTS-R and concentrates on the core products. FPV have an issue with those products and how they have tried to grow their business over the last few years.

What you aren't taking into account is that products in this end of the market are as much about image as they are about hard numbers.

Generally consumers paying premium prices expect said products to be on an equal footing with similar priced products. Generally these people expect the product to grow as they do. If the competition offers it then so to must FPV if they want to retain market share. That’s the bottom line and there is “no getting over that”. Its simple business economics. If the price of achieving that can’t be justified you have no choice.

At our AGM on Sunday the over whelming comment amongst owners was that if Orion GT isn't a 13.5 to 13.2 car HSV will be on the shopping list, at least in the short term. The majority couldn't care less if it had 180 plastered on the bonnet provide it is publicly acknowledge as a performance car in the ball park of its rivals, not necessarily faster. These people have no intention of using this potential; rather they want the product to speak for itself. For too long Ford owners have had to explain their purchase. Talking about the modification done to ones car might work in a select audience (forums) but there is nothing like pulling up to a station and having instance recognition about the product and the reason behind it and that has to extend further then just the skin. In saying that there is the disclaimer that takes nothing away from those owners that do chose to modify their car but they do so for a different reason and they are at days end still in the minority.

Ford, in this rarefied segment have never fully come to grips with this aspect, never really understood the statement side these products must make. HSV have done that better and this product (GTS_R) just continues their own business case. It’s out there, so that’s it. There is really nothing to say.

Fpv have bigger issues then a GTS-R to worry about. FPV mistakenly believe the numbers of the V8 range have dropped because of economic conditions. They are wrong.
F6 as good as it is, hasn’t taken up the slack. The repeat business and what the industry term as "conquest" buyers have deserted FPV and for one reason only.

They have a core business that is a repeatable and renewable resource for them. They stepped sideways again and the numbers reflect that, both on the charts and in the boardroom.
I think the bottom line here is that the people waiting for Orion FPV will be looking past claimed outputs to the performance benchmarks. Their minds aren’t on a halo product but the core business that is reachable to a greater audience. A product that in future could underpin the budget that allows FPV to shoot for the stars and when that day comes, judge it on its merits in the “now” not the past or history.

[eb2fairmont]

The probelm is a lack of a modern day mongrel...

If we had a stripped out GT, with lightweight wheels, seats, carpet and a higer output boss then people would probably take notice.

You wouldn't sell a lot, but everyone would know what it is, and respect it.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by DougM

Youv'e got to be kidding!!!!

The Corvette doesn't beat the Ford GT with the same engine and less weight!!!

The Corvette does come close to the GT in acceleration, but the overall package doesn't compare to the GT......It is half the cost of the GT......Give me the GT anyday!!!!!!

Sorry i may have explained myself un clearly. I was refering to the corvette being closer to a GT40 rather than an XR8 in price an stature. Its not your regular run of the mill car, plus it will be limited models.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Its about as Aussie as our US parts bin 5.4 V8 with a German Auto and American Manual gearbox... you mean that Aussie car?

Neither Ford or Holden are close to being fully Australian, and they never will be. At the moment the BFII and VE are as Australian as it gets. Platforms designed here and built here.

Mate that auto is used by both ford an holden, the difference ford used it first an pulled it apart an added synchros an things to make it better. That engine is dirrectly from the corvett mate. Only the exhaust is different... knocking a few kilowatts off the aussie version. At least fords engines are built for aus cars not pillfered from america. Id like to see an american with an inline T6 that kicks in a family sedan.

[1TUFFUTE]

I dont no what all the fuss is about all the time. Ford aus is doing just fine in my books. The latest performance car handling test saw the (so called old slow boring Typhoon) kick the of a brand new HSV GTS. Now by that i mean it only just came in behind it on overall points (just) and this new supercar VE is suposed to be all that.Last years performance car test saw Fords with the top 3 aussie spots with a holden nowhere in sight. An even more recently the fpvs finished 3 or 4 spots ahead of the hsvs in this years perfomance car tests.

Another thing how can holden get car of the year when there main car the comadore six has the oldest trashiest engine ever to grace a new model line up in history. The thing gets thrashed by a full second by the new Toyotas...

Anyhow im pretty biased when i want to be... but theres heaps to help that cause along the way if u dont mind looking :

Plus GTs look horn. if they wernt so heavy theyd be lightning ...