Pre July 1st 07 P platers can drive BA GT

[Cam06GT]

There are still some quick cars out there which are allowable.

VW R32 184kw V6, 1510kg: kw/kg = 122, L/tonne = 2.12
0-100km/h = 6.5s
however, a tad expensive for most p-platers
heaps of street cred IMO
(or for heaps less money a VW Bora V6 4motion) 150kw AWD/6sp man, <$20K

Renault Clio Sport. Try keeping up with one of these in traffic around town in a GT....I don't think so. Awesome P-Plater performance car.

Otherwise just get an XR6 like everyone else and wait until your off your Ps for a GT/XR8 etc.

I'd imagine Vicroads (and the police) are tired of hearing from young people trying to find loopholes to get cars which they shouldn't be in....

[Sterling]

the no modification law cant be controled easily... im not sure if it is for engine only or entire car.. but im not on my ps yet, but if i was, and i got pulled over for whatever reason... my motor looks 100% standard except for extractors and a chrome cam cover. the cop OR vicroads cant tell that ive got crane camshaft, and other extensive head work unless i rev its guts to humour them.

and another note... with the power to weigh ratio.. how can this be proven also? i see online all the time ricerboys with there nissans and hondas that have stripped everything from there car, stereo, back seats, even there carpet. i remember reading an article about a bunch of guys from a magazine stripping everything from a 2.0 n/a nissan pulsar, and it did 0-100 in 8 seconds? and after stripping everything (not like panels or doors) it was doing 0-100 in 6 seconds. now theres no way to prevent this unless the car is looked inside, or the boot opened. i even heard in one case a dude changed his fuel tank to a smaller one to save weight? as dumb as it may sound.

just my 2 cents ; you know what i think? they shouldnt do restrictions... for any car unless its a stupidly obvious killer (such as richy rich getting a ferrari for his 18th)

they should just raise rego for the car. the better to power to weight is the costier it would be.

who knows what the restriction are as of now or future?.. i have a 950kg ford escort with 2litre with worked head.. probly makes around 100 hp or less but spins the wheels very easily and the one time i let my friend drive it he nearly killed us by steering with the throttle.

[SVT8]

I drive a V8, pre JULY 07. Never been pulled over, no speeding or parking fines and its my daily. Bigger heads, manifold, cam, exhaust, tune. Car is classed as factory 165kw, drive responsible and nothing will happen.

[azaxr8]

I, For one drive a ba xr8 on my p plates, The problem is most guys get behind the wheel and have a false sense of security, thinking they have big brakes, big wheels and they can corner doing speeds which the car and there driving experince can not handle with. Lose control and kill themself.

But on the same point, This is just a temporary fix to a permanent problem. A v8 can take off quicker then a 6 but at the end of the day, They both do 140+ therefore a better solution would be limiting the speed on p plates cars to infact 100.

On the odd occasion you here that people have killed themself when taking off from lights, it's more so the fact when overtaking, street racing, high speeds, cornering at high speeds. These 4 things are what i define as the biggest killer. Now you tell me? what car cant do 120-160? what car cant go around a bend at high speeds? It comes down to the driver. If they invested more money into teaching us young fellas how to drive, such as making L's n P's have to resit a defensive driving course every 6 months.

That solution to me is a better way to contribute to this increasing problem.

[Tuddy200]

Actually, I'm starting to think either VicRoads has made a mistake on the website or the OP is indeed correct. How I read it is:

Definition of a high powered vehicle (prior to 1 July 2007)

a power to mass ratio which exceeds 125 kilowatts per tonne; or
an engine capacity which exceeds 3.5 litres per tonne of the unladen mass (tare) of the motor vehicle

This means that your car is a high powered vehicle if it meets either one of these conditions, I don't think anyone is disputing that? However,

High powered vehicle restrictions that apply if you obtained your probationary licence before 1 July 2007Drivers who were issued a probationary licence prior to 1 July 2007 may drive a vehicle if it is not a high powered vehicle as defined by both definitions. If a vehicle is defined as high powered under one definition but not the other, it may be driven.

It says, as defined by BOTH definitions.

If a vehicle is defined as high powered under one definition but not the other, it may be driven.

As the calutions on the last are correct by my maths, which could be wrong, then the yes, the car is a High Powered Vehicle but doesn't meet the requirements of Vicroads banned "High Powered Vehicle" because it doesn't exceed the requirments on both.

So there you go flappist, were not trying to a GT isn't a high-powered vehcile, just that it's not a VicRoads considered one.

Anybody know the extract in the Road Transport Act? Or anybody willing to go and try and explain that to a HWY Patrol Cop who thinks they are a judge and jury?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by G.J.Tuddy

So there you go flappist, were not trying to a GT isn't a high-powered vehcile, just that it's not a VicRoads considered one.

So you agree that P plate licencees should not be allowed to drive a GT then?

[Jim83]

Sorry northiam, if you actually read all of the info on the link you posted above you'll see that the 2 definitions are:

1.) People who obtained their license Prior to 1 July 2007
- a power to mass ratio which exceeds 125 kilowatts per tonne; or
- an engine capacity which exceeds 3.5 litres per tonne of the unladen mass (tare) of the motor vehicle

2.) People who obtained their licence After July 2007
- An engine of eight or more cylinders;
- a turbocharged or supercharged engine (except diesel powered vehicles);
- an engine that has been modified to increase its performance;
- and/or any of the following high performance six cylinder vehicles as published in the Government Gazette.

So No you Can not legally drive a BAGT on a Victorian probationary license.

[Tuddy200]

I did some research for this:

It comes under the Road Safety (Drivers) Regulations 1999 which I found a copy of from the Department of Justice Website. Which all sources indicate that it is most up to date.

Find it here: Road Safety (Drivers) Regulations 1999

The following defines what a High Powered Vehilce is:

211 High powered motor vehicles
Reg. 211 substituted by S.R. No. 72/2007 reg. 10.
(1) Subject to subregulation (2), for the purpose of regulation 211A, a high powered motor vehicle is a motor vehicle (other than a motor cycle or motor trike) which—
(a) has an engine with 8 cylinders or more; or
(b) has an engine which is turbocharged or supercharged (other than a diesel powered vehicle); or
(c) has an engine that has been modified to increase the vehicle's performance (other than a modification made by the manufacturer in the course of the manufacture of the vehicle); or
(d) is declared by the Corporation under subregulation (4)(a) to be a high powered motor vehicle for the purposes of this regulation; or
(e) has a modification declared by the Corporation under subregulation (4)(b) to be a high powered modification.
(2) A high powered motor vehicle does not include a vehicle declared by the Corporation under subregulation (4)(c) not to be a high powered motor vehicle.
(3) For the purpose of subregulation (1)(b), an engine is turbocharged if a turbocharger is installed in the vehicle, whether or not it is otherwise attached to the engine.
(4) For the purpose of this regulation, the Corporation, by notice published in the Government Gazette, may—
(a) declare that a vehicle or class of vehicle is a high powered motor vehicle;
(b) declare that a modification to a vehicle or type of modification to a vehicle is a high powered modification;
(c) declare that a vehicle, other than a vehicle with an engine having 8 cylinders or more, is not a high powered motor vehicle.

The following says who ain't allowed to drive a High Powered Vehicle as defined by what's above:

211A Offence to drive high powered motor vehicle
Reg. 211A inserted by S.R. No. 72/2007 reg. 10.
(1) The holder of a probationary driver licence must not drive a high powered motor vehicle on a highway.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) Subregulation (1) does not apply to—
(a) the holder of a probationary driver licence who is driving a high powered motor vehicle in the course of his or her employment and at the request of his or her employer; or
(b) the holder of a probationary driver licence who is exempt from the requirement in subregulation (1) by the Corporation in accordance with subregulation (3); or
(c) a member of the police force who, in the course of duty, is driving a motor vehicle; or
(d) a person who is driving a high powered motor vehicle that is also a heavy vehicle if—
(i) that person does not hold a driver licence that authorises the holder to drive that motor vehicle; and
(ii) he or she is the holder of a driver licence of another category; and
(iii) a person who holds an Australian driver licence which is appropriate for the category of vehicle that is being driven is sitting beside him or her; and
(iv) there is a driver under instruction plate affixed to, and facing out from, the front and rear of the vehicle.
(3) The Corporation, by instrument in writing, may exempt the holder of a probationary driver licence from the requirement of subregulation (1) if the nature of that person's employment or family circumstances is such that compliance with the regulation would impose undue hardship on the person or the person's family having regard to the likely effect of the exemption on safe, efficient and equitable road use in Victoria.

The following is Engine Capacity restrictions:

211B Engine capacity limit for holders of probationary motor cycle licence or learner permit
Reg. 211B inserted by S.R. No. 72/2007 reg. 10.
(1) The holder of a motor cycle licence who has held that licence for a period of less than 12 months must not—
(a) drive a motor cycle with an engine capacity exceeding 260 cubic centimetres; or
(b) drive a motor cycle on which there is a pillion passenger.
Penalty: 3 penalty units.
(2) The holder of a motor cycle learner permit must not—
(a) drive a motor cycle with an engine capacity exceeding 260 cubic centimetres; or
(b) drive a motor cycle on which there is a pillion passenger.
Penalty: 3 penalty units.
(3) If the Corporation is satisfied that a person has motor cycle driving experience in another Australian State or Territory or another country, it may specify in the licence a shorter period than that required in subregulation (1).
(4) Subregulations (1)(a) and (2)(a) do not apply to a member of the police force who, in the course of duty, is driving a motor cycle on which there is no pillion passenger.

Then in the "Probationary licence amendments" at the end, this is said:

(3) Regulations 211A and 211B do not apply to the holder of a probationary licence that was granted before 1 July 2007.

So by that law, those o us before July 07, ahve no power to weight ratio either. Unless someone knows where else in the law it is written?

[Tuddy200]

Originally Posted by flappist

So you agree that P plate licencees should not be allowed to drive a GT then?

Not just P plate licencees, if we could i'd say anyone of any age, gender or background be not allowed to drive one if we knew that they couldn't use the power respectably before giving them the license or the car.

However, we don't know that, so instead we have (i'm partially in agreeance with it) a blanket rule covering the most inexperienced drivers on our roads from driving one.

Problem I see is, you leave that rule when you turn 21-22 (given that you get your license as soon as possible.) and by no means do I believe just because you have had 3-4 years on the road solo are you going to automatically stop being a tool on the road and using a V8 incorrectly.

I don't think there is anything anyone could do in there V8 that I couldn't in my BA XR6? You may get to your top speed quicker, but i'll only be 1-5 seconds behind if that depending on the car.

There is just so many holes in the blanket policy.

On the other hand, I see many people (mainly young females) driving small little cars like they are rally driving and are alway flying around the corners including lately during the massive wet roads wer have had here, and i'm suprised as to how come at least 1 of them hasn't just lost traction and hit a pole! It's no just young makes driving big V8s that are causing problems.

[dom_105]

It's all in the mentality of said drivers in question. You can just as easily get yourself in a world of trouble driving a stock as a rock Falcon or Commodore as you can in a GT or Clubsport.

If young drivers are deemed not to have the capability to handle a high performance car, it says a lot about our testing/training standards. It's a bit of a cop out really, to be seen to be doing something about the issue without investigating other possible solutions (driver training, for one)

And for the record, you were never able to drive a BA GT on a probationary license in Victoria, regardless if you hold a pre-July 2007 or post-July 2007 license.

[Tuddy200]

Originally Posted by dom_105

And for the record, you were never able to drive a BA GT on a probationary license in Victoria, regardless if you hold a pre-July 2007 or post-July 2007 license.

As little as 5 years ago in Victoria, you could drive whatever car you felt like.

What I posted above is what the current law stands as, which seems to suggest that we are much welcome in our right to do so, if we obtained our probationary license before 1st JUL 07.

[Tuddy200]

Just to clarify, i'm not after an argument over who should/shouldn't be allowed to drive high powered vehilce, i'm just hoping somoene knows of somewhere else these laws may be covered?

The Vicroads Website & the above RS(d)R 1999 clash with each other and both are completely different to what the understand is by most people I talk to. Doesn't anybody on these forums work for VicRoads? We must have one.

[outback_ute]

Originally Posted by G.J.Tuddy

As little as 5 years ago in Victoria, you could drive whatever car you felt like.

What I posted above is what the current law stands as, which seems to suggest that we are much welcome in our right to do so, if we obtained our probationary license before 1st JUL 07.

Incorrect, the 3.5L/tonne or 125kw/tonne thing has been in force in Vic for roughly 15 years at least. Are you thinking of L's? There weren't any restrictions for those under the now-superceded rules at least. Not sure where you are getting that a car has to meet both criteria either, if it exceeds either you could not drive it on P's.

[[Tonko]]

Originally Posted by Cam06GT

I'd imagine Vicroads (and the police) are tired of hearing from young people trying to find loopholes to get cars which they shouldn't be in....

They arent the only ones....
Plus all the whingers.

[Tuddy200]

Originally Posted by Cam06GT

There are still some quick cars out there which are allowable.

VW R32 184kw V6, 1510kg: kw/kg = 122, L/tonne = 2.12
0-100km/h = 6.5s
however, a tad expensive for most p-platers
heaps of street cred IMO
(or for heaps less money a VW Bora V6 4motion) 150kw AWD/6sp man, <$20K

Renault Clio Sport. Try keeping up with one of these in traffic around town in a GT....I don't think so. Awesome P-Plater performance car.

Otherwise just get an XR6 like everyone else and wait until your off your Ps for a GT/XR8 etc.

I'd imagine Vicroads (and the police) are tired of hearing from young people trying to find loopholes to get cars which they shouldn't be in....

So your saying there is no point to this NO V8 rule or power to weight ratio rule because there is still many cars available that can achieve the same if not higher speed and power anyway? which is what we have been saying all along.

Actually, there is a difference between finding loopholes and stating exactly what the law says. Whinging is one thing, but I'm actually collating all this and going to see VicRoads as I want clarifaction on what the law is and where it is stated.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by G.J.Tuddy

So your saying there is no point to this NO V8 rule or power to weight ratio rule because there is still many cars available that can achieve the same if not higher speed and power anyway? which is what we have been saying all along.

Actually, there is a difference between finding loopholes and stating exactly what the law says. Whinging is one thing, but I'm actually collating all this and going to see VicRoads as I want clarifaction on what the law is and where it is stated.

Why do you keep arguing about this? you cant have your V8 or turbo, and that's the end of it, wait till you qualify for it and move on...!

[gozza]

BA GT high performance ? lol

[northiam]

Well I spoke a Vic police traffic division, the cop on the phone looked at the web site and wording and said it was contracting and ambiguous and said he would call me back.
He later did call back and said the definitions are referring to pre and post July 07.
I may be no William Shakespeare but I don’t see how one would come up with that just reading that web page, just covering themselves I guess!

It certainly makes sense that a BA GT would be among cars banned for new drivers but that web site doesn’t make that clear.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Why do you keep arguing about this? you cant have your V8 or turbo, and that's the end of it, wait till you qualify for it and move on...!

Differences between the real world and school in the 21st century.

1) No means NO, not "oh well ok you are special and you can be yes because I don't want to hurt your feelings".
2) Fail means FAIL, not "oh come on, try again, I will help you, there are no wrong answers really, oh it looks like the test is too hard, lets just say you passed and discuss how really cool you are".
3) Respect and credibility must be earned, they are not available on 1000 days interest free.

[Tuddy200]

Originally Posted by northiam

It certainly makes sense that a BA GT would be among cars banned for new drivers but that web site doesn’t make that clear.

Which is not what we want so now that this has been cleared up, then maybe one of the mods would like to close this before I end up saying stuff that will get me banned?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flappist

Differences between the real world and school in the 21st century.

1) No means NO, not "oh well ok you are special and you can be yes because I don't want to hurt your feelings".
2) Fail means FAIL, not "oh come on, try again, I will help you, there are no wrong answers really, oh it looks like the test is too hard, lets just say you passed and discuss how really cool you are".
3) Respect and credibility must be earned, they are not available on 1000 days interest free.

Strikingly obvious isnt it!

[Tuddy200]

Originally Posted by flappist

Differences between the real world and school in the 21st century.

1) No means NO, not "oh well ok you are special and you can be yes because I don't want to hurt your feelings".
2) Fail means FAIL, not "oh come on, try again, I will help you, there are no wrong answers really, oh it looks like the test is too hard, lets just say you passed and discuss how really cool you are".
3) Respect and credibility must be earned, they are not available on 1000 days interest free.

Actually, just for the entertainment of it all then, let me put it this way, as my opinion or my understanding of this reading:

If NO means No, then YES means YES?

Then in the "Probationary licence amendments" at the end, this is said:

Quote:
(3) Regulations 211A and 211B do not apply to the holder of a probationary licence that was granted before 1 July 2007.

The post here: My Post

211A & 211B is what states who CANNOT drive a car as defined by 211, so the above extract means for people Pre-Jul 07 they are allowed to. Please don't bad mouth me, just tell me where I am mis-understanding that extract from the rules & regs?

There is still another 2 years worth of Probationary Drivers who come under those extracts in my above post, so wouldn't it be worthwhile looking into it now and getting any confusion sorted? Just discussing this.

[4Vman]

I think you're still missing the whole point of the legislation..... :

[SpoolMan]

Move along guy's, many points have been made several times.
Standard needs to lift or thread will be closed.

[outback_ute]

Here is the Vicroads page with list of regulations Link The relevant one is the Road Safety (Drivers) Regulations 1999. Note that this has been amended to reflect the new system, the current version can be found HERE while the 1999 version is HERE. The website for Victorian parliamentary Acts & Regulations is: http://www.dms.dpc.vic.gov.au

Here is the definition of high-powered car straight from the regulations:

Originally Posted by Road Safety (Drivers) Regulations 1999

"high powered motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle (other than a motor cycle or motor trike) which—
(a) has a power mass ratio which exceeds 125 kilowatts per tonne; or
(b) has an engine capacity which exceeds 3.5 litres per tonne of the unladen mass
of the motor vehicle;

It clearly states "or" - ie if either limit is exceeded you can't drive the vehicle.

Originally Posted by Road Safety (Drivers) Regulations 1999

211. Vehicle power restrictions
(1) The holder of a probationary driver licence must not drive a high powered motor vehicle on a highway until the probationary period shown on
his or her licence has expired.
Penalty: 3 penalty units.

[want-a-XY]

if, in QLD, you got your P's before July 1 2007 you can drive what you like

[ILLaViTaR]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Well Vicroads dont know what they're on about. As said above before the no tubo/v8 rule which was the OP is talking about P platers in Vic could drive 5 litres. I know a few guys and girls that were doing this.

??????????????????????????

Well if there was no V8 ban then why wouldn't they be allowed to drive 5 litres????

Vicroads told me it applies to every P plater (As I said above) even people who got their license before the laws were introduced. People could/can apply for an exemption (but that's not everyone before July 07).

I just Read above: I don't know what's going on here, I was informed from Vicroads but so were others I know, same story. From what you said that link must be 100% correct. Think their customer services needs a punch in the face.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

??????????????????????????

Well if there was no V8 ban then why wouldn't they be allowed to drive 5 litres????

Vicroads told me it applies to every P plater (As I said above) even people who got their license before the laws were introduced. People could/can apply for an exemption (but that's not everyone before July 07).

I just Read above: I don't know what's going on here, I was informed from Vicroads but so were others I know, same story. From what you said that link must be 100% correct. Think their customer services needs a punch in the face.

Yep, it's worrying when you rely on these people to tell you the law (they dont need to know it off their heads but they should have something that will inform them) so you dont put yourself in trouble.

But I do know before the no v8/turbo rule P platers could and still can drive V8's as long as they are below the power to weight stated.

[dom_105]

Originally Posted by vztrt

But I do know before the no v8/turbo rule P platers could and still can drive V8's as long as they are below the power to weight stated.

That is quite true. The Lexus SC300/Toyota Soarer V8 models were P plate legal, just.

[fpbabe]

i've got a toyota soarer twin turbo, and i wouldn't have been allowed to drive it on my Ps. also, all soarers/lexus scs are classified as sports coupes, so i wasnt aware that they could be driven by a P plater. mind you, they're heavy buggers so perhaps they can.
in victoria, there are 4 rules for P-platers to abide by (that differ from regular license holders):
1. must always have a blood alcohol content of 0.00.
2. must carry permit license while driving
3. must always have p plates displayed.
4. are not permitted to drive high powered vehicles
i was pretty sure this included al v8s