2008 Paris Motor Show: Falcon put on hold

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by Serial_Fool

You AU lovers are a sensitive lot. The ORIGINAL AU Falcon styling was a huge duckup by Ford, simple as that (which was too bad because it was a huge leap ahead of the EL construction wise). If it were released with BA-ish styling I think Ford would be in the position of Holden now and the VT-VZ wouldn't of been as popular.

The car was 10% of the problem. Marketing was the rest.

Well before Holden/HSV had anything worth selling, they were overtaking Ford in sales. The VR/VS was a rubbish car that started the process well before AU came on the scene. While I admit the AUI Forte/Futura was not exactly a looker, There was nothing wrong with Fairmont/XR cars in any way including looks, yet they were smashed in sales. Add to that the non-existing marketing of the T-series, and you can see why they slipped into an even bigger hole.

What I am saying to you is don't blame the 1998-2002 Falcon, blame the 1998-2002 Ford PR department.

The real shame is that the mentality has been left to fester on a better looking car with little sign of recovery. Yet some insist that the AU should sport the blame? :

Daniel

[4Vman]

Everyone jumps on the "blame marketing" bandwagon, but IMO Marketing had absolutely nothing to do with its problems... its obvious where the problems lie, id be FAR more inclined to blame the design dept.... as 99% of people already know.
Its possible they're responsible to some degree for the problems the Falcon now faces with Image.........., I'll leave it at that.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Everyone jumps on the "blame marketing" bandwagon, but IMO Marketing had absolutely nothing to do with its problems... its obvious where the problems lie, id be FAR more inclined to blame the design dept.... as 99% of people already know.
Its possible they're responsible to some degree for the problems the Falcon now faces with Image.........., I'll leave it at that.

AU was an error, as was the EA/D, early E's just took too much getting used too, yet inside were much better than the Holden offering (does anyone like the VN dash?), and AU well some people still havent got used to it. The EL was much nicer to look at. VN/VP, was a pig ugly monstrosity inside and out.

Its simple, Holden are the chosen ones in Aus, and Australians tend to hammer anyone who doesnt conform. Bagging Holden is like saying you dont care about ANZACs. This brings a lot of people in line with Holden no matter what they build.

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Everyone jumps on the "blame marketing" bandwagon, but IMO Marketing had absolutely nothing to do with its problems... its obvious where the problems lie, id be FAR more inclined to blame the design dept.... as 99% of people already know.
Its possible they're responsible to some degree for the problems the Falcon now faces with Image.........., I'll leave it at that.

Let's put AU aside for a mo.

So you think that VT-VE have always been a 20-50% better car (based on sales figures) than BA-FG, and that Fords Marketing department are not responsible for that?

Strange, most journos say that the equivalent Ford model is better than the Holden.

You don't secretly work for Fords PR machine do you?

Daniel

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by fmc351

AU was an error, as was the EA/D, early E's just took too much getting used too, yet inside were much better than the Holden offering (does anyone like the VN dash?), and AU well some people still havent got used to it. The EL was much nicer to look at. VN/VP, was a pig ugly monstrosity inside and out.

Its simple, Holden are the chosen ones in Aus, and Australians tend to hammer anyone who doesnt conform. Bagging Holden is like saying you dont care about ANZACs. This brings a lot of people in line with Holden no matter what they build.

Huh?

XA-XC was an error and a backwards step from XY........ XP should have gotten the 289........... FG should have got AWD to go with it's Territory front suspension and had an optional GT500 engine. What the hell are you talking about?

AU was a revolutionary car for Ford and one of the cheapest to repair/most reliable cars ever sold in this country.... yet crook series 1 looks have made it an error?????

Time for me to go off-tangent - Maybe marriages in this county would last longer if people looked past the skin? :

Daniel

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Huh?

XA-XC was an error and a backwards step from XY........ XP should have gotten the 289........... FG should have got AWD to go with it's Territory front suspension and had an optional GT500 engine. What the hell are you talking about?

AU was a revolutionary car for Ford and one of the cheapest to repair/most reliable cars ever sold in this country.... yet crook series 1 looks have made it an error?????

Time for me to go off-tangent - Maybe marriages in this county would last longer if people looked past the skin? :

Daniel

Here we go again, applying logic of someone who 'understands' whats under the skin, to the mums and dads who only care what it looks like, or price. They buy what they think is pretty, or popular, or has a boot big enough to stuff Grandma in. Most dont care who wins on Sunday, thats why they drive Magnas and Toorak tractors or whatever else. I compared EA to VN, and mentioned the obvious one, most people thought the AU was hideous. Looks sell.

oh, I picked a couple of cars, wasnt going to get into a debate about every Aussie Ford since day dot.

And Im going on 20 yrs with the one woman. Id be out now if I killed her back then.


Who said AU owners were an overly sensitive lot?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Let's put AU aside for a mo.

So you think that VT-VE have always been a 20-50% better car (based on sales figures) than BA-FG, and that Fords Marketing department are not responsible for that?

Strange, most journos say that the equivalent Ford model is better than the Holden.

You don't secretly work for Fords PR machine do you?

Daniel

No, i don't work for Ford!

I also don't think the VT-VE is 20 - 50% better than the BA/F.. but relative to the competition BA/F fought a much stronger fight because people liked it more....
I think were heading down a well worn path that usually ends in tears, history can't be changed.

[Supercharged]

The way to hide FWD would be to make an all wheel drive. It would really be a front wheel drive with rear wheel assist, a bit like the Honda CR-V, as a 4 wheel drive they are a joke but people buy them thinking they are 4WD, would they sell as well if they were front wheel drive only, not at the numbers they do now.
If the falcon had to go say AWD then the tunnel could be smaller as would the rear axle.
Would I buy an AWD Falcon, maybe, would I buy a FWD Falcon, NO.

[CAMS290]

If Ford goes FWD with the Falcon, they will lose me forever, suffice to say that i would go to the dark side......

But i would buy the last model RWD Falcon, "say F6" for a keeper and drive it just to remind me how good they used to be.

Lets hope it doesn't come to this, but we have to accept that Australia is a relatively small country with 3 car manufacturing companies, people and the media perception that large cars use heaps more fuel than smaller cars, govt cutting tariffs wont help the Falcon's viability either and FoA's lack of foresight into making the Falcon LHD for exports have really "dare i say" put the nails in the hand of the man with the hammer that is in charge of nailing the Falcon's coffin lid down.

Maybe the weakening of the Aussie dollar may help the Falcons cause with the price of imported cars increasing substantially if the trend continues.

[Supercharged]

Originally Posted by CAMS290

If Ford goes FWD with the Falcon, they will lose me forever, suffice to say that i would go to the dark side......

But i would buy the last model RWD Falcon, "say F6" for a keeper and drive it just to remind me how good they used to be.

Lets hope it doesn't come to this, but we have to accept that Australia is a relatively small country with 3 car manufacturing companies, people and the media perception that large cars use heaps more fuel than smaller cars, govt cutting tariffs wont help the Falcon's viability either and FoA's lack of foresight into making the Falcon LHD for exports have really "dare i say" put the nails in the hand of the man with the hammer that is in charge of nailing the Falcon's coffin lid down.

Maybe the weakening of the Aussie dollar may help the Falcons cause with the price of imported cars increasing substantially if the trend continues.

The poor exchange rate right now is a 25% tariff on imports.

[Scott]

Speaking of blame.... Ford dropping the V8 for nearly a decade didn't help. Kids in the 80's had to fall in love with a Sierra or a V8 Commodore. Fast forward 25 years and those kids are the target audience for Ford & Holden. Ever wonder why there are so many Holden flags at the races?

There are a number of big mistakes Ford has made over the years, the styling of an AU Forte was one of the best, dropping the V8 is another, sub-standard marketing is another, putting the wrong engines in the V8 FPV......FWD might just be the best yet.

[XR Martin]

Would people buy a RWD Falcon and Territory if it was built in Thailand? They are building up a massive car industry, with cars like the Hilux, Ranger/BT50, Triton, Accord, Colorado/DMax, Navara all built there. Quality wise they are fine, and dont seem to suffer the stigma of cars built in Korea.
Quality couldnt really get any worse....

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Would people buy a RWD Falcon and Territory if it was built in Thailand? They are building up a massive car industry, with cars like the Hilux, Ranger/BT50, Triton, Accord, Colorado/DMax, Navara all built there. Quality wise they are fine, and dont seem to suffer the stigma of cars built in Korea.
Quality couldnt really get any worse....

Not good for OZ but the build quality of my Ranger thumps my BA ute.

[irlewy86]

Well I think we've all heard the negatives on the Falcon FWD but I think their is a silver lining to what seems to be a death throw decision.

1) Fords best products are global
Taking a look at the current worldwide line up of FoMoCo cars and it seems to paint a clear picture that its best performers are its global ones. Focus, Mondeo, Fiesta all top sales and quality charts internationally and applauded as often being class leading in many areas. Falcon won't just be FWD it will be a global FWD.

2) Build Quality
Everyone's biggest gripe with BA was build quality and dealer attitude. By focusing FoA budget in to local modification and manufacturing of the body only, Ford will be able to concentrate on bringing its quality into line with the Australian leader and its subsidiry Mazda. At a dealer level they will be able to sell with confidence and less dealer visits means less chance of having a bad experience.

3) Competing, not just hiding behind a driveline
Ford watched the 380 disappear and surely it must have made a few observations during that time. If the Falcon goes FWD it will be directly competing with Toyota/Mazda/Subaru and wont be able to simply offer the advantages of RWD dynamics. It will have to have a competitive FWD vehicle in terms of; build quality, price, ecconomy, space and style to maintain local manufacturing.

Personally, I'm opposed to the move however if it is executed correctly it may just buy another 20 years of local car manufacture.

[Thunderbird]

If push comes to shove.. Ford have closed the Detroit based facility last year for the big car series like Continentials, Thunderbirds and the big platform cars..... and just in time.. its a HUGE plant....wasted.
Ford Australia knows more about whats got to happen.. and that is the Big car series ..like the US Market.. has been for reps and taxi's.. both now being down played.
The time has gone for Falcon exports.. and this current Financial mess.. sealed its limited future.
For instance....I was in Saigon (Vietnam) recently.. the airport taxis are the size of a Proton sedan IF your luckly.. and they do it because of cost.. the same COST's are eating into the business market here.. "THINK LIKE THE BOSS" and .. the Falcons a nice car & as a former staffer of Ford Public Relations in Oz.. I LOVE the cars..I have also written about various Ford models in the past.. (long ago now) .....but realistically.. they are dino's.. The Mondeo is world class.. and and equally nice car to drive.. the Focus is a world class car.. and meets todays restrictions and needs.
The Idea of FWD or RWD.. lets just HOPE FORD Australia can keep some production here..

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Would people buy a RWD Falcon and Territory if it was built in Thailand? They are building up a massive car industry, with cars like the Hilux, Ranger/BT50, Triton, Accord, Colorado/DMax, Navara all built there. Quality wise they are fine, and dont seem to suffer the stigma of cars built in Korea.
Quality couldnt really get any worse....

Sales volumes would never justify the setup costs to start production somewhere else. If Ford Australia shuts up shop then Falcon and Territory would be finished.

[banarcus]

A fella I recently met was an ex- Ford salesman who worked at a large Ford dealership when the AU came out. He said that people came into the showroom and were appalled at the look of the thing. He said that it was a very hard car to sell because of the look of it inside and out. He also said, which history tends to support, that Ford gave the large car market to Holden on a silver platter.

Taking the market for granted has got to be one thing that Ford have always been guilty of. What's good for Ford is also good for the Australian large car market.

[Bobman]

"Dearborn favoured a (BMW) 5-series sized car (that is significantly shorter than the Falcon). If you plot the 5-Series over the decades, you'll see it remains much the same size, although it has recently been under pressure from the C Class/the much bigger looking new A4 and the 3-Series, which have all grown. The Falcon is outside that, because it is bigger on the inside and has a shorter wheelbase."

The current 5 series BMW seems bigger than the FG Falcon. It almost doubled in size from the early 1980s models to the E34 upgrade. It would be my choice of car though if Falcon went FWD. Why the hell would you go to the dark side when BMW would be the best choice out there if this happened, albeit more expensive.

[68XTFairmont]

I don't know what the new ones are like but has anybody tried buying parts for the mid to late 90's mondeos, probes and taurus???


I wouldn't even consider a FWD car of any sort ever again but anyone thinking they would they would want to hope that Ford make the FWD Falcon more service friendly than the older FWD

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by 68XTFairmont

I don't know what the new ones are like but has anybody tried buying parts for the mid to late 90's mondeos, probes and taurus???


I wouldn't even consider a FWD car of any sort ever again but anyone thinking they would they would want to hope that Ford make the FWD Falcon more service friendly than the older FWD

Only because they sold very little of them. Parts for a Taurus and Probe are cheap as chips in the US. (and I imagine Mondeo parts from the UK)
Its cheaper to buy parts directly from there, than to get it from a local distributor. Its got nothing to do with how its wheels are driven.

Parts for Magnas and Camrys are not much more than a Falcon or Commodore, if at all.

[S3SR]

In July/August the then accelerating American financial crisis forced a complete re-evaluation of Ford's resources and lead to the current decision to prioritize development of a range of big front drive models based on existing platforms.

in simple terms lets make what is already a failure into something even worse, thatll solve our money problems

rather than streamline a design for both markets and many more, where its a win win, to replace aged crown victoria and a new design for the falcon for its release with new engine.....

i dont understand how these people think... Ford aus should break off from its parent Ford US before they bring us down with them

[wadexr583]

In regards to the ute, I'm surprised no one has mentioned that if Falcon went FWD, why couldn't the current platform (FG) ute continue to sell alongside? Think of the XD ute platform. It sold for what, 20 years including 10 or so alongside the EA to EL platform. It wasn't until '98 that there was an all new ute platform. I'm not saying that this is what will happen, but maybe its an option for Ford Oz?

Of course you can forget about IRS in the future but in reality I don't think it's the issue some make it out to be.

Peoples thoughts?

[4.0i_SiX]

fwd v6 falcon, no thanks

[Dave_au]

New Ford Australia president confirms a front-wheel drive Falcon is under study
Link: http://goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.n...2574E20003669B

[HSE2]

And he thinks he has a say!

[loxxr6]

Bad move.

I'd rather see the Falcon name dropped and a totally new model released if they went FWD.

It's interesting tho that drive.com.au has an article on the new Taurus saying it has AWD. An AWD falcon would be alright....

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

New Ford Australia president confirms a front-wheel drive Falcon is under study
Link: http://goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.n...2574E20003669B

Its been under study for 20 years... this story gets rolled out every new model.
A falcon is a Large RWD 4 door family car, if Ford build a large FWD 4 door Family car it won't be called a Falcon...

[Wally]

I think the Falcon should remain RWD and more than that, I think Ford should make a Cortina/Torana sized RWD drive too. With some innovative thinking, the bogey of drivetrain losses (i.e. fuel economy) should be solveable.

It's been nearly 50 years since the Mini made the transverse engine popular, so even FWD methodology is getting a little long in the tooth. What have the genius' been doing all that time except tweeking around the edges and changing body shapes?

If Ford was your family company, would you be happy to see the financial disaster it's become because it no longer innovates and can't read the market? Would you allow it to become a me too producer, always playing catchup with your competitors? What I'm saying is that a FWD Falcon would merely be a distraction from the real need for someone to do the hard yards and deliver up a car that appeals to a broad market .... the average Joe isn't concerned about RWD, he just wants something he can prize.

[loxxr6]

Hmm.. FWD FPV's?

Actually maybe FPV's are the next thing to go.