Whats legal:re: ambo with flashing lights

[boss-290]

Originally Posted by Penelope Pitstop

OK in the example of having an ambulance sitting up your bum at a red light there is one perfectly obvious answer/solution to the problem.

Look in your rearvision mirror (you will find it in the centre of the windscreen in most vehicles) and make eye contact with the Paramedic. Hold your hands up in a "what the hell do I do" type fashion and wait for their instruction. They will either point you left, right or tell you to hold it where you are until the lights change green.

Pretty easy and safe option in my opinon.


You honestly believe this is what happened

As if any Emergency Services personnel would risk their job - years of study and professional reputation just to advance through lights quicker or make it to the bank.

Things are not always what they seem - they are a heaps of reasons as to why this scenerio could have happened but I will let me gorgeous fiancé fill you in, in more detail.

Well excuse my ignorance

[Penelope Pitstop]

Originally Posted by boss-290

Well excuse my ignorance

You are excused darling, just don't be so quick to judge in future - especially when you don't have all the facts.

The scenerio you spoke of is normally a direct result of the ambos being called off a job because the call takers have found a closer vehicle or the job has been cancelled or downgraded.

It is a pet hate of mine when people make assumptions about this kind of stuff - so sorry if I come across as being a bit narky.

[Nathan&Amanda]

I have been told by a fire fighter, if you run a red light to allow them through, they will write your plates down and report it when they get back (well they should) it goes into the system and removes you from the ticket.

i doubt an actual police officer would do you for this, cause if you don't let them through and your are in bigger trouble.

but aslong as done in a safe manor you should be sweet.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by bigev

My understanding is that you are not permitted to run the red.

I was told this by a friend who is a firey, and if get in to this situation, they are either meant to wait or find another way around (which is generally what they will do).

That is exactly what I said. People, it is time to put away the opinions and beliefs and listen to the professionals that deal with this everyday.

Do not run the red light, it is dangerous for us but suicide for you, just move out of the way as best you can and we will find a way through. We have flashing lights and hi vis reflective striping all over the car and we still get hit (rarely, thankfully) by inattentive drivers, what chance do you have? If you make it through, it is a pure act of god.

A couple of seconds is not worth possible carnage at an intersection running the red may cause.

We will not be happy if the child with an airway obstruction now has to wait 10 minutes for an ambulance instead of 2 minutes, because we now have to peel you out of a car as you have run a red light. Just believe me, I know this stuff and it is not worth the risk .

On the way home from work the other day driving down Cheltenham road, and I was following an ambulance. It wasn't in emergency mode.

I ended up over taking it, and traffic started to build up a little bit. It then started to have its sirens and light going off, so all the cars started to give it way.

It then turned down another road toward Dandenong Bypass.

I turn down the road that goes past Dandenong Bypass (near Keysborough Maccas) and met with it and it no longer had its lights flashing or siren going.

It seems that they abused their power.

Thought I'd share that with you all

Ok, this happens all the time and I am in this situation on a daily basis. It is not us abusing our power, in fact in the 5 years I have been in the service I have never abused our power, nor has any paramedic I know, nor have I ever heard of one that has. You have to remember that the service is always getting complaints from motorists with this accusation and not one has been proved. There has always been reason for the lights and siren.

Each time the lights and siren are turned on it has to be done with clearance from dispatch, who logs where the ambulance is, the time and the route is tracked and recorded by the Automatic Vehicle Locator (AVL). When we downgrade to code 2, the location and time is also logged.

We do not travel on a code 1 response, turning the lights on and off when we need them. We turn them on when we begin the response and off when we get there, they are on the whole time.

The siren is different, we will turn it off if it is appropriate, normally it should be on all the time during daytime hours as the lights are not visible enough in bright light. During night hours we do turn the siren off if it is not needed, just being nice to the residents. Queensland Fire and Rescue Service do not do this as part of policy, they had an issue that resulted in an accident and the firey was found responsible purely because he did not have the siren going, so now they wake up the neighbourhood.

Now reasons for the situation you talk of include.

1 Intitial information from the caller indicated a code 1 response but further information indicated code 2 is appropriate. The ambulance is dispatched code 1 on limited information in order to reduce response times, in fact the ambulance is often rolling before you are even off the phone. If further information showsthe ambulance does not need to be code 1, they will downgrade us for safety reasons.

2 There are oten 2 vehicles responding to a case, a transport unit (mercedes) and a single officer response (sedan etc). The first officer on scene will assess the patient and if appropriate downgrade the second unit.

3 Occasionally a case is cancelled because an ambulance is no longer needed (yes even happens on code 1) and therefore the vehicle is cancelled. The reasons for this is a big long list in its self, so just trust me.

4 Often a vehicle is placed on a case, durig their response a closer vehicle becomes available so they cancel the first.

5 Whilst on code 1 responses, we keep the idiot lights going whilst we are getting through traffic. When we get close to the scene of the case and no longer need them, we turn everything off. This is so we do not wake up the neighbourhood and also so we do not attract the attention of everyone in the street and end up with an audience. If we arrived with lights and siren still going, we could sell tickets for the spectacle.

There are other resons, but you get the idea.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Nathan&Amanda

I have been told by a fire fighter, if you run a red light to allow them through, they will write your plates down and report it when they get back (well they should) it goes into the system and removes you from the ticket.

i doubt an actual police officer would do you for this, cause if you don't let them through and your are in bigger trouble.

but aslong as done in a safe manor you should be sweet.

Paramedics do not, we go a whole day without seeing station and do not have time for such paperwork. We often go the duration of a 12hr shift wih no breaks and then do a couple of hours overtime, on the go the whole time. We have no such system and in fact it would be difficult for you to get in touch with the crew for them to defend you. If you did, it might be three weeks later by which time they will not be able to confirm any memory of your car and they will not support you. That is the way it is, you may see 1 ambulance that day, but that amulance may do a dozen code 1 responses during that shift, our memory is not that good. We would love to help but we already have so much to do on the way to a job we can not.

As for safely running a red, read my previous post.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by XR-CHIEF

on the topic of ambulances how awesome do the new QAS ambos look!



http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/...23/2371818.htm
theres a story on the transponder that changes the lights

I stand corrected, they are being trialled in QLD, but not in Brisbane region yet and I do not imagine such a roll out would occur before middle of next year. There are so many changes at the moment, it is often hard to keep up.

As for the vehicle pictured, that is actually not a Paramedic vehicle, it is now a Patient Transport car. It was a mockup using a PTS car in order to show us the new striping scheme (note it has no license plate, no rego yet). All the beacons etc where taken off after the pic and the true markings put on.

The actual Emergency Paramedic cars have similar striping, but are larger, have a big white plastic roo bar and a weird light bar on the rear that we call the go fast spoiler. Best of all is they are now the twin turbo model, PTS get single turbo and ours have some grunt (for a merc).

[GS608]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

The actual Emergency Paramedic cars have similar striping, but are larger, have a big white plastic roo bar and a weird light bar on the rear that we call the go fast spoiler. Best of all is they are now the twin turbo model, PTS get single turbo and ours have some grunt (for a merc).

Seen a few of them round the Coast, wondered where the plastic bullbar was and the spoiler, have to admit they do look good for an ambulance, Sorry to hijack the thread but gecko do you know if QAS are going digital encryted at all?

[Bobman]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

The actual Emergency Paramedic cars have similar striping, but are larger, have a big white plastic roo bar and a weird light bar on the rear that we call the go fast spoiler. Best of all is they are now the twin turbo model, PTS get single turbo and ours have some grunt (for a merc).

Are they the 318 V6 TT Series?

There have been complaints here in Vic about the 315 Series (same as above), in that they had less power than the old 316 models (in my picture previous page).

[Nathan&Amanda]

That is why i said a fireman, as there is six in the car, and plain and simple they have the chance to do it, as they can't do anything while in transport,

i think what i meant by system was they called the police and informed them.

but red light cameras only work at set times, not all times. ( as in 3 sec and 10 secs after light goes red or so.) i will be stood correct as again can only go off second hand information.

Nathan

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Bobman

Are they the 318 V6 TT Series?

There have been complaints here in Vic about the 315 Series (same as above), in that they had less power than the old 316 models (in my picture previous page).

Yes they are, changed to the bigger one because we found the 316 did not have the grunt to overtake traffic on any hill. The new one is so much better. To drive they are awesome (by ambulance standards) and even have more get up and go than the Ford F350/250 Powerstroke diesel. I just wish some of the internal fittings were better sorted.

Seen a few of them round the Coast, wondered where the plastic bullbar was and the spoiler, have to admit they do look good for an ambulance, Sorry to hijack the thread but gecko do you know if QAS are going digital encryted at all?

The bull bar is a good idea, apparently small dents in it can be fixed by leaving the car in the sun a few hours, memory plastic re forms.

Not sure about the communications side. I am pretty sure the mobile data terminal (MDT) is encrypted and has been for a while. The radio network is not as I had to publicly invite tow trucks to a prang over the radio the other day (not often I have to do that, somehow they often beat us).

I know there are plans for the MDT network to be digitally tied in using the mobile broadband network which will also provide vehicle location and navigation. This will result in each case appearing on our Panasonic Toughbooks, prelim details already entered on our case report and navigation route plotted and sat tracking, I can't wait.

[DJR-351]

In 2004 i was attending the Australian Maritime Collage in Launceston Tasmania, part of the course required us to spend a day in the Emergency Ward at the local Hospital and the next day a Ambulance crew to obtain our Ship Masters Medical Cert.

The day in the Ambo was a real eye opener, it was Anzac day and all the Vets were out marching, some getting a skin full and falling over, i can honestly tell you i have never come across a more patient pair of guys.

The way they handled that thing through the traffic was nothing short of professional, they always acknowlaged the vehicles that gave way for them and never forced a situation that could cause an accident, they read the situation and reacted accordingly.

I did ask the question about other road users copping a fine and such for doing some thing that in other circumstances would be classed as illegal while giving way to an Ambulance, they told me they had not heard of any instances of anyone been convicted of such, and that if one did go to court they would probably be standing next to them giving evidence for the defence.

I was amazed at the amount of calls they responded to in the one shift, i got to the station 0700 am and i did not get home until 2000.

Two accidents that we attended stick in my mind that day, while they were messy, thankfully they where not fatal. While i was having trouble keeping my lunch down these guys never flinched, they where extremely gentle with the patient and never short of a kind word to keep their spirits up.

I for one will have no problem risking a ticket by giving way to the emergency services, as has been mentioned in this post it could be you or a loved one that they are trying to save, so give way safely please.....

[geckoGT]

The way they handled that thing through the traffic was nothing short of professional, they always acknowlaged the vehicles that gave way for them and never forced a situation that could cause an accident, they read the situation and reacted accordingly.

All paramedics have these skills and this attitude, that is why trust us to give you the correct guidence.

I did ask the question about other road users copping a fine and such for doing some thing that in other circumstances would be classed as illegal while giving way to an Ambulance, they told me they had not heard of any instances of anyone been convicted of such, and that if one did go to court they would probably be standing next to them giving evidence for the defence.

I am not saying that I would not defend someone if I remember them. All I am saying is that by the time the case is bought to my attention, I will have no hope of remembering the vehicle. Remember for me to give evidence in legal proceedings I have to tell the truth of what I remember, if I do not remember it I can't help. I do on average 5-10 code 1's a shift, 5-6 shifts a week, so at worst by the time this situation has come to my attention I am trying to remember it from 400 other code 1 responses, pretty hard to remember clear facts. I would love to help but I will not commit purgery, if I remember clearly I will help of course.

I for one will have no problem risking a ticket by giving way to the emergency services, as has been mentioned in this post it could be you or a loved one that they are trying to save, so give way safely please.....

Sure, if need be risk a ticket if you can do so in absolute safety but make sure you note the ambulance number and location, it will help you track us down. Hopefully we will remember you but please understand if we don't, it may have been a big event for you but just another day for us.

Most importantly do not put yourself or any other person in any risk, if you or anyone else gets hurt, we have to stop and you have done more damage than good for the person that we are responding too.

At the end of the day, in 99.99% of the times, running a red light is a plain stupid thing to do and I will never recommend it!!

I do not see how I can say this any clearer.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

All paramedics have these skills and this attitude, that is why trust us to give you the correct guidence.



I am not saying that I would not defend someone if I remember them. All I am saying is that by the time the case is bought to my attention, I will have no hope of remembering the vehicle. Remember for me to give evidence in legal proceedings I have to tell the truth of what I remember, if I do not remember it I can't help. I do on average 5-10 code 1's a shift, 5-6 shifts a week, so at worst by the time this situation has come to my attention I am trying to remember it from 400 other code 1 responses, pretty hard to remember clear facts. I would love to help but I will not commit purgery, if I remember clearly I will help of course.



Sure, if need be risk a ticket if you can do so in absolute safety but make sure you note the ambulance number and location, it will help you track us down. Hopefully we will remember you but please understand if we don't, it may have been a big event for you but just another day for us.

Most importantly do not put yourself or any other person in any risk, if you or anyone else gets hurt, we have to stop and you have done more damage than good for the person that we are responding too.

At the end of the day, in 99.99% of the times, running a red light is a plain stupid thing to do and I will never recommend it!!

I do not see how I can say this any clearer.

Sorry buddy but i think you took a few of my remarks out of context,

1. The remark about standing for the defence was made in a jockular manner and in no way implied they would be drawn into leagle arguments, just that they had never heard of anyone been convicted of such a thing and they would be unhappy if someone was.

2. I never once said run a red light, i never once said do anything that may create a worse situation, what i did say was whatever you do, DO IT SAFELY, and dont be worried about a ticket, i wont happen.

While i would never play down the role of anyone in the emergency services, you are not the only one on the planet that has to deal with emergency situations, so please take care about who you lecture to. I work at sea where the preservation of life is paramount and we dont have the benefit of any emergency services, we have to deal with it, and in no way as a Ships Master would i condone doing anything that would make the situation worse.

All i was trying to say in my post was have an appreciation of the situation you have found yourself in, dont panic, do what you can safely, if doing nothing is the safest thing then do that, it may sound stupid but trust me its not, crashing red lights is not the best option as my learnerd companion points out.

[geckoGT]

I for one will have no problem risking a ticket by giving way to the emergency services, as has been mentioned in this post it could be you or a loved one that they are trying to save, so give way safely please.....

This implies running a red light, due to the fact a lot of this discussion has been about running red lights. Just about the only way you could get a ticket is by running a red light. Some will think that they can run a red light safely, I suggest that this is unlikely and running a red light is excessive risk.

The remark about standing for the defence was made in a jockular manner and in no way implied they would be drawn into leagle arguments, just that they had never heard of anyone been convicted of such a thing and they would be unhappy if someone was.

Strange, your initial post said that they stated they would

that if one did go to court they would probably be standing next to them giving evidence for the defence

, does that ring a bell?. Sounds like paramedics getting drawn into legal matters to me.

I too would not be happy if I ever did see someone cop a fine, but I would hate to see them or someone else hurt more. I am sure if you ask those paramedics what they think of running a red light, they would say it is a bad idea too and would not endorse it in any way.

You had implied that it is a good idea to do what ever it takes to get out of the way (safely), although you may not have realised it some would have applied this to running red lights. A lot of this is because the people reading do not know all the elements of the conversation you had with those paramedics. In the process you made me look bad because I had previously said it would be extremely difficult and made me look like I would not support a mmotorist in this situation. I would support if I can, but that does not mean I endorse that behaviour.

I have tried to point out to all those that are reading this why it is not, thus fulfilling both my community and professional duty to support public safety. In your post you undermined that effort, which is why I felt I had to reply.

2. I never once said run a red light, i never once said do anything that may create a worse situation, what i did say was whatever you do, DO IT SAFELY, and dont be worried about a ticket, i wont happen.

Wrong, it has happened before and it most certainly can again. Sure the circumstances would have to be exceptional for charges to occur, but imagine a death occured as a result of this action. It is one hell of a gamble to take, epecially when most of the time there are other options.

While i would never play down the role of anyone in the emergency services, you are not the only one on the planet that has to deal with emergency situations, so please take care about who you lecture to. I work at sea where the preservation of life is paramount and we dont have the benefit of any emergency services, we have to deal with it, and in no way as a Ships Master would i condone doing anything that would make the situation worse.

Yes I realise I am not the only one on the planet and I would actually like to hear the opinion from some of the Police Officers we have on these forums. I am sorry it appears that I have "lectured", I thought I was just trying to get an important point across as some here appeared to be genuinely interested in the opinion of someone in the job. I guess it became a bit of a lecture when people appared to be endorsing actions that are not a good idea.

All i was trying to say in my post was have an appreciation of the situation you have found yourself in, dont panic, do what you can safely, if doing nothing is the safest thing then do that, it may sound stupid but trust me its not, crashing red lights is not the best option

Agreed completely!

[Jason[98.EL]]

geckoGT thanks for the insight of what the people that are behind the wheel of an ambulance go through each day

yourself and redrum are great to have as a resource for those that dont know the ins and out of the police and paramedics working life

i for one never realised how many incidents an ambo has to deal with every time they are on the road

thanks again

Grimus

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Grimus

geckoGT thanks for the insight of what the people that are behind the wheel of an ambulance go through each day

yourself and redrum are great to have as a resource for those that dont know the ins and out of the police and paramedics working life

i for one never realised how many incidents an ambo has to deal with every time they are on the road

thanks again

Grimus

You are welcome

[Bobman]

I believe the worst thing that paramedics and MICA (Mobile Intensive Care Ambulance) crews deal with is the amount of low-lives who abuse them both verbally and physically, or those who try to attack crews who are working on one of their drug-overdosed mates.

There was also a case of rocks being thrown at an ambulance 4WD here in Victoria a few months ago. Some years ago vandals glued the key holes on several ambulances and as recent as last year, vandals torched a Commodore MICA sedan.

Drunks and druggies (who refuse to be helped) should not be helped IMHO. It's a waste of resources when there are real decent people who are in need and often wait longer because the ambulance service is so busy dealing with thugs.

[azaxr8]

Originally Posted by Explorer_Me

They have no ability to change lights, thats why Ambo's, Police and Firey's slow down at intersections and never flat stick it through, my god how do they know what is coming through the lights, it would be another accident waiting to happen if they did, they will find the safest way around even crossing to the wrong side of the road if need be. Funny thing about sirens you hear them long before you see the vechile coming and most ppl reactions are to automaticly slow down, but there is always some numb nut out there that thinks they have right of way and wont move over

They are trialling a new system in the eastern states that gives them the ability to control the light changes and give themself green lights if on a priority 1 call.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

This implies running a red light, due to the fact a lot of this discussion has been about running red lights. Just about the only way you could get a ticket is by running a red light. Some will think that they can run a red light safely, I suggest that this is unlikely and running a red light is excessive risk.



Strange, your initial post said that they stated they would , does that ring a bell?. Sounds like paramedics getting drawn into legal matters to me.

I too would not be happy if I ever did see someone cop a fine, but I would hate to see them or someone else hurt more. I am sure if you ask those paramedics what they think of running a red light, they would say it is a bad idea too and would not endorse it in any way.

You had implied that it is a good idea to do what ever it takes to get out of the way (safely), although you may not have realised it some would have applied this to running red lights. A lot of this is because the people reading do not know all the elements of the conversation you had with those paramedics. In the process you made me look bad because I had previously said it would be extremely difficult and made me look like I would not support a mmotorist in this situation. I would support if I can, but that does not mean I endorse that behaviour.

I have tried to point out to all those that are reading this why it is not, thus fulfilling both my community and professional duty to support public safety. In your post you undermined that effort, which is why I felt I had to reply.



Wrong, it has happened before and it most certainly can again. Sure the circumstances would have to be exceptional for charges to occur, but imagine a death occured as a result of this action. It is one hell of a gamble to take, epecially when most of the time there are other options.



Yes I realise I am not the only one on the planet and I would actually like to hear the opinion from some of the Police Officers we have on these forums. I am sorry it appears that I have "lectured", I thought I was just trying to get an important point across as some here appeared to be genuinely interested in the opinion of someone in the job. I guess it became a bit of a lecture when people appared to be endorsing actions that are not a good idea.



Agreed completely!

Ok i give up, enjoy your 15 mins...........

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Bobman

Drunks and druggies (who refuse to be helped) should not be helped IMHO. It's a waste of resources when there are real decent people who are in need and often wait longer because the ambulance service is so busy dealing with thugs.

Much of what you have mentioned is very frustrating at times, and at times I have wondered why we bother, usually at a time when my frustration level is high.

Having said this, eveyone is a human being and everyone deserves a second chance. I believe everyone has good in them and one day that good may come to the forefront of their actions, that is why we do it.

Ok i give up, enjoy your 15 mins...........

: : :

[Buzz Box]

I must say personally I couldn't do it because half those druggies and junkies etc I'd just walk away and let them die so I could attend to REAL medical issues.

The only problem is then you shut EVERYTHING down for 3 hours around that person waiting for the coroner so I suppose you do have to at least move them to a hospital.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Buzz Box

I must say personally I couldn't do it because half those druggies and junkies etc I'd just walk away and let them die so I could attend to REAL medical issues.

The only problem is then you shut EVERYTHING down for 3 hours around that person waiting for the coroner so I suppose you do have to at least move them to a hospital.

Everyone deserves an equal opportunity at life from the homeless drug addict to the pope, we are all humans.

We do not move dead people to hospital at all. We often discontinue resus on scene and hand over to police for management. We do not normally load someone in the car if they are in cardiac arrest, we can resus more effectively on scene and therefore increase their chance of survival.

[NGN 351]

Ok now for some sanity as I work as a paramedic.

Boss290, paramedics do not turn their lights and sirens on and off for the hell of it. Simply you can get a priority one which can then get stood down, from the call being cancelled to the patiens condition improving.

It is an offence to impede the clear passage of an ambulance, thats why you should always at your earliest convinience pull to the left. If you can slow down until you can pull left, and put your indicator on so that the ambulance crew and other road users can see your intentions.
If you cannot move it is up to the ambulance to move around you.

Hope this helps

Justin

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by NGN 351

Ok now for some sanity as I work as a paramedic.

Boss290, paramedics do not turn their lights and sirens on and off for the hell of it. Simply you can get a priority one which can then get stood down, from the call being cancelled to the patiens condition improving.

It is an offence to impede the clear passage of an ambulance, thats why you should always at your earliest convinience pull to the left. If you can slow down until you can pull left, and put your indicator on so that the ambulance crew and other road users can see your intentions.
If you cannot move it is up to the ambulance to move around you.

Hope this helps

Justin

Did not realise I was insane :

But yes it does help as you have just backed up everything I have said.

[merlin]

My 2c - Within the next six months in Sydney all government buses will be fitted with transponders (actually they already have been they are just not turned on yet) that change the lights green if they are behind schedule and red if they are early. It is my understanding emergency vehicles will also be fitted.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by merlin

My 2c - Within the next six months in Sydney all government buses will be fitted with transponders (actually they already have been they are just not turned on yet) that change the lights green if they are behind schedule and red if they are early. It is my understanding emergency vehicles will also be fitted.

Great, held up by busses more often, I can't wait.

If a bus has this fitted, as does an ambulance and they both approach the same intersection from different directions, who wins?

[blackers10]

in brisbane the buses have transponders that talk to the sheep hook shaped bus stop posts (usually have digital readouts of bus time table flashing at the top)

these talk to the bus which then talks to the traffic control grid which when a bus is running late it will alternate the light sequence to enable to bus a more smooth run to catch up time
it doesnt just automatically flash to green as soon as the bus approaches.. its more of a timing thing.

id know because my dad drives for brisbane transport /brisbane council buses
and its moreso for the in and out bound buses like the 333 from brisbane to chermside to help move more people more efficently through peak hour

[kinksta]

back to the initial post.....i was told by a cop that the ambo will go around, and you can get booked for moving out of the way, but all the ambos i've seen go around anyway, never seen one sit behind a car. so don't move.