White-wall tyres defectable - Page 2

calais · 21-09-2009, 06:40 PM

I have actually seen how whitewalls are made first hand. If you are buying something like the BF Goodrich silvertowns that I observed in production, you will see that the original production methods involve the 'gouging' of the sidewall after it is released from the mould prior to the application of the 'porcelain white' mix to create the actual whitewall.

When the tire is moulded, BF Goodrich specifically leave a greater amount of rubber on the sidewall as not to detriment the structural integrity of the tire.

I am of the opinion, that if the portion of rubber that is being removed from the sidewall, is minimal and obviously not contributing the sidewall strength, that there is no real problem.

What is a problem, is when the 'whitewall' application is done dangerously, where the gouge channel is either too deep, or too wide. The only way to prevent this is carefully observe the operator who is conducting the operation. and to measure the depth and width exactly.

Now, In stating the above, I would also like to add, that the idea of people getting fined on the spot by a police or transport officer is absurd.

I would love to see some kind of statistical proof which details that an 'illegally' whitewalled tire contributed to either road trauma or incident.

Unfortunately what I see in this subject is a cash cow for government coffers, and very little else.

If the justification is in the name of road safety in relation to tyre condition, then maybe a little more time should be spent looking at the number of vehicles getting around on mismatched tyres, directional tyres mounted in reverse, vehicles with poor wheel alignment leading to abnormal (dangerous) wear patterns and obviously the number of vehicles with no tread left.

If we continue to vote for clowns who introduce and enforce ridiculous regulations to problems that dont exist, we are just going to have to keep dealing with such issues as car enthusiasts.

yift · 21-09-2009, 06:46 PM

i have and will and i will/have suceeded! i have a valid rwc licence and i have proved them incorrect on a number of occasions. at one stage i was carrying the roadworthy information folders with me. but that is beside the point.

i never said it was a legal modification, the way i see it is i will not pass a car with damaged sidewalls on their tyre/s, which also means i would not pass a vehicle with painted walls. even if someone got paint and painted the walls without grinding back the sidewall i would not pass it, just like if i have a suspicion that a vehicle has a dodgey repair under its paint, stoneguard or any other painted surface. i can ask the person bringing the car in to remove the paint or stoneguard or just fail them. simple as that.

in saying all that i will pass tyres with factory painted walls provided there is enough evidence to prove they are from the factory.

geckoGT · 21-09-2009, 06:56 PM

Of course there is no issue if they are factory white sidewalls. The manufacturer has already proved compliance with safety standards.

Why should governments and police spend any money researching uncontrolled modifications to car safety equipment. They should not, nor can they. Sure get some tyre from Joe that have had the mod done, and find they are ok. Then they might get some from Fred that have too much gone, resulting in a structural weakness. The persons conducting these mods is too uncontrolled to be assessed properly. Why should the taxpayer fund this research.

The way I see it, if you want white sidewalls, you fund it and buy them, simple.

XPfalcon170 · 21-09-2009, 07:01 PM

Well, thats both my cars out then

The whitewalls on the Xp and the red walls on the El :jab:

V3RSAC3 · 21-09-2009, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

The way I see it, if you want white sidewalls, you fund it and buy them, simple.

I had mine done by a professional, a guy who has been doing it here in SA for over 30 years. One of the first people to do it here. If you look at my tyre there is barely any rubber that has been grinded out. And I still have my tyre specs on it. Either way i'm not taking them off and if I do get defected for them i'll be down at my cousins shop getting some rims to get passed.

geckoGT · 21-09-2009, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V3RSAC3

I had mine done by a professional, a guy who has been doing it here in SA for over 30 years. One of the first people to do it here. If you look at my tyre there is barely any rubber that has been grinded out. And I still have my tyre specs on it. Either way i'm not taking them off and if I do get defected for them i'll be down at my cousins shop getting some rims to get passed.

Fair enough.

Maybe an option is for some of these professionals to support their clients. They could arrange for their processes to be inspected and approved with a system of certification.

That way when their clients get pulled over and questioned on the mod, they produce the certificate and the police are happy it has been done in a safe manner. Much the same system as the QLD system of modification plates being attached to modified vehicle to prove the mods are safe.

calais · 21-09-2009, 07:14 PM

The sticking point for me in all of this, Is that we have legislated ourselves into a police state, where an apsolute stack of money is being spent on finding "problems" and overspending on "enforcement".

Like I stated earlier, find me the statistics which detail that an illegally 'whitewalled' tyre has contributed to road trauma or incident, and I will apologise and take the due correction on the chin. Until then, This whole debate is based on opinion and not fact, and only serves to further inflame the issue.

As for the people that say, "just go out and buy OEM whitwalled tyres" I'd love to see where anyone can buy brand name high performance, high load rated tyres in todays rim sizes and profiles in the white or red wall styles.

Also, It would appear that there are advances in technology which mean that there is no longer any need to remove rubber from the tyre sidewall at all. replacing this previous requirement with a raised silica bead.

Now, why should any taxpaying citizen who has modified their vehicle have to justify every last minute detail to an authority who will just wave it through inspection? (speak to most people who have had to clear trivial canaries) I mean apart from having to pay for the said inspection, what has the taxpayer recieved in return? Nothing, and road safety has neither gained or lost through the experience.

V3RSAC3 · 21-09-2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Fair enough.

Maybe an option is for some of these professionals to support their clients. They could arrange for their processes to be inspected and approved with a system of certification.

That way when their clients get pulled over and questioned on the mod, they produce the certificate and the police are happy it has been done in a safe manner. Much the same system as the QLD system of modification plates being attached to modified vehicle to prove the mods are safe.

That would actually be the best way to do it I s'pose!

geckoGT · 21-09-2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calais

Now, why should any taxpaying citizen who has modified their vehicle have to justify every last minute detail to an authority who will just wave it through inspection? (speak to most people who have had to clear trivial canaries) I mean apart from having to pay for the said inspection, what has the taxpayer recieved in return? Nothing, and road safety has neither gained or lost through the experience.

For the simple reason they choose to modify an item that is required by legislation to meet safety standards.

If there are other options such as silicon beads, no probs.

There just needs to be some way that controls the guy armed with an angle grinder and white paint from thinking he knows what he is doing and giving it a go but taking too much off.

burnz · 21-09-2009, 07:23 PM

theirs no law against this, so its a moot point.
you get defected take to the RTA and have it removed simple.

geckoGT · 21-09-2009, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

theirs no law against this, so its a moot point.
you get defected take to the RTA and have it removed simple.

Depends on the state law in which you live.

V3RSAC3 · 21-09-2009, 07:29 PM

At the end of the day it comes down to how much of a power trip the officer who pulls you over is on.

geckoGT · 21-09-2009, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V3RSAC3

At the end of the day it comes down to how much of a power trip the officer who pulls you over is on.

Perhaps.

Or maybe how much you fail the attitude test, or how seriously he takes his job.

V3RSAC3 · 21-09-2009, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Perhaps.

Or maybe how much you fail the attitude test, or how seriously he takes his job.

Yeah thats also true. But I was bought up to be respectful. I have never had an attitude to an officer. And i've pretty much gotten out of everything (besides 1 speeding fine for 10kays over). If you treat them with respect then they won't be so harsh on you. They want to be treated like people also. Thats how I got out of the officer defecting me for my white walls. He just said that he "could" defect me for it.

calais · 21-09-2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

For the simple reason they choose to modify an item that is required by legislation to meet safety standards.

If there are other options such as silicon beads, no probs.

There just needs to be some way that controls the guy armed with an angle grinder and white paint from thinking he knows what he is doing and giving it a go but taking too much off.

Ok, so we penalise the majority because of the acts of a tiny minority. That in itself has proven to be a flawed and very expensive logic, especially in this case.

I believe that issue should be addressed not by wayward police officers, but by roadworthy inspection stations, like in NSW during your annual inspection. it is not a subject that requires heavy police scrutiny, which only serves to aggravate rather than effect a workable solution.

geckoGT · 21-09-2009, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calais

I believe that issue should be addressed not by wayward police officers, but by roadworthy inspection stations, like in NSW during your annual inspection. it is not a subject that requires heavy police scrutiny, which only serves to aggravate rather than effect a workable solution.

Yeah that will work, it will only prove the car does not have unsafe mods on one day out of every 365.

yift · 21-09-2009, 07:52 PM

im actually getting my hands on one of these machines that does the coloured walls, to see how it all works. i know of people who work with tyre engineers and we might be able to get some load tests done on a coupe of tyres to see if they do actually get weakened.

but at the end of the day this mod is illegal but it depends on how the tester/copper is.

burnz · 21-09-2009, 08:40 PM

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registrati...vsi09_rev4.pdf
page six is something i didn't know.
1.5mm tread for only 75% across.

yift · 21-09-2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registrati...vsi09_rev4.pdf
page six is something i didn't know.
1.5mm tread for only 75% across.

that doesnt apply to passanger cars, read the rule above it.

Rodp · 21-09-2009, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

theirs no law against this, so its a moot point.
you get defected take to the RTA and have it removed simple.

I guess it depends on what has been done to the tyre.

It is illegal to remove the specs from the side of the tyre in NSW (it is no longer ADR compliant) and this is often done when a tyre is whitewalled. I can't imagine that would vary from state to state.

calais · 21-09-2009, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Yeah that will work, it will only prove the car does not have unsafe mods on one day out of every 365.

Agree to disagree on that point there. You believe they are all unsafe, I do not. (In reference to whitewalling tyres)

geckoGT · 21-09-2009, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calais

Agree to disagree on that point there. You believe they are all unsafe, I do not. (In reference to whitewalling tyres)

You have not read what I wrote properly.

I do not believe they are all unsafe.

I am just saying that the cop on the road should not have to sit there and work out if they have been modified in a safe manner or not. There should be a method for the processes to be controlled, stopping Tim the toolman taking to his tyres with his souped up angle grinder.

If you modify safety equipment, you should have to prove that it was done in a safe manner.

If that can be done, be on your way to whitewall nirvana.

Does that make sense?

In my post I was referring to the annual inspection. You know when it is so therefore you can make sure you have compliant tyres for the inspection. Then when you get home you through your whitewalls on that have had too much skimmed off and therefore weakened.

There does need to be random inspections as well, so you do not know when it will be.

mrniceguy · 21-09-2009, 10:24 PM

The paranoias thick in the air here today. Grinding the sidewalls?? Sounds like they just rough it up to get the paint to stick.

platinumXR · 22-09-2009, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Look at it from a police perspective.

They pull over a car with modified whitewalls, on tyes that were not constructed that way. They can not tell if it was done by a professional that knows not to take too much off or some backyard hack that has damaged tyre integrity. Nor should they be expected to sit there and work it out, they have better things to do than this. They will do the prudent and professional thing in the discharge of their duties. They have suspicion that it may be an illegal mod, so they will then give notice and compel the owner to have it inspected by a competent vehicle examiner to ensure the vehicle is safe. So they should, it is their job.

Hit the nail square on the head there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by calais

The sticking point for me in all of this, Is that we have legislated ourselves into a police state, where an apsolute stack of money is being spent on finding "problems" and overspending on "enforcement".

Like I stated earlier, find me the statistics which detail that an illegally 'whitewalled' tyre has contributed to road trauma or incident, and I will apologise and take the due correction on the chin. Until then, This whole debate is based on opinion and not fact, and only serves to further inflame the issue.

Now, why should any taxpaying citizen who has modified their vehicle have to justify every last minute detail to an authority who will just wave it through inspection? (speak to most people who have had to clear trivial canaries) I mean apart from having to pay for the said inspection, what has the taxpayer recieved in return? Nothing, and road safety has neither gained or lost through the experience.

Fallacious reasoning. It is for the very reason that they have modified it from an factory condition that they are required to justify the the modification is safe, was done competently and will not POTENTIALLY cause harm or damage to anyone or anything. Modifying your vehicle is not a god given or legislated right that is being infringed upon remember. I have been modifying cars for more than 25 years but have always gone out of my way to make the modification (if not as legal - pollution wise, as I can), as safe as I can make it...as I do not want to end up, upside down somewhere or cause undue carnage...

Would you rather be asking, after someone has crashed in your parked pride and joy or bowled over one of your kid's on their way home from school: "Why can't the police/Gummint do something about these idiots before they hurt some one? Surley there must be something they can do to stop them from doing this dangerous modification..." and so on and so forth...you get the idea. It's simplistic and worst case scenario granted...but what better reason is there?

You could liken it to the "closing the gate after the horse has bolted", or "prevention is better than cure".

Elks · 22-09-2009, 10:23 AM

I don't know what the big deal is.

I have genuine Cooper whitewall on my fairlane $600 a set. Thats not much dearer than normal tyres and probably less than than buying tyres and having them striped.

There is also plenty of big diameter/low profile available with white/red/Gold stripe. Ausam sell/import them. they aren't as price competitive as the normal 14 &15" stuff.

I had the paint on thing done to my BA ute and 3 months it was crappy and 6 months, gone. a waste of 180 bucks. and yes they ground a groove about 1mm into the sidewall. It never caused me a concern but i have no idea how thick a sidewall is, or weather it matters. or what the liabilty is if it failed. ll gone now and with new std tyres.

my 2c

calais · 22-09-2009, 02:39 PM

Arguments and theories have been well presented and taken on board. I do maintain my view however. I look forward to further clarification of the subject once official announcement is made in NSW.