LPG versus Petrol. What's your view

[steharz]

hi everyone out there,my name is steve and this is my first post here , after reading the comments on lpg i thought id share my experience with this fuel,i drive an 81 LTD that had the factory 302c in it set-up to run on LPG and petrol-this thing ran really well on LPG and was CHEAP to run,on average abit under half the cost of running the car on petrol,power was about equal although the 302 was tuned for the LPG so running on petrol was something i only did when a gas station wasnt close when the tank needed filling.after swapping in a 351w built up to the edelbrock RPM specs my old LPG system just didnt cut it,the hat that sits on top of the carb wouldnt flow enough air and the system was ditched in favour of running on petrol,that was two years ago and with the crazy prices of petrol at the moment im seriously thinking about getting a performance LPG system set-up for my LTD.i think with the right LPG system on a performance engine,it will make good power and will be a hell of a lot cheaper to run,if and when i score a system ill post some numbers on petrol use verses lpg

[bindi]

Originally Posted by steharz

hi everyone out there,my name is steve and this is my first post here

Welcome Newbie (especially a proLPG newbie!) :

[Steffo]

Geez.. I filled up today on PULP... 132.9 cpl

Took a glance at the LPG prices... 38.9 cpl

ARGH!

[Bluehoon]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Geez.. I filled up today on PULP... 132.9 cpl

Took a glance at the LPG prices... 38.9 cpl

ARGH!

13???


Try 142 this arvo!!! :evilsasmo

Its only going to get worse. OPEC want good old OZ on par with the rest of the world too... Not long till its $2 per litre. Mongruels.

Hate this stardards rubbish, let us use our own fuels cheap!!!!!

[*rayman*]

Originally Posted by steharz

hi everyone out there,my name is steve and this is my first post here

Sounds like an AA meeting introduction.This place is addictive, welcome.

[460cixy]

i have had a few cars on gas and thare all been great. one of them was a toyota truck that i hauled a 3 ton tractor around on no worrys at all. i just finished a conversion on my pajero and i recon down low its got more torque than petrol and havent even ajusted the timeing yet. also in the A.C.T you get cheaper rego if you have lpg.

[pandaman]

Originally Posted by bindi

Hmmm... I'm not a misguided hippie because if there were other fuels to choose from that really are just as cheap AND as readily available, I would choose those over LPG. I would like to try CNG and may convert when I see it at more servos.

Heh. I wasn't singling you out as misguided, believe it or not there are some people out there even more fanatical about the stuff than you are. As for CNG, interesting stuff, although I don't think it's got any chance of really catching on in domestic vehicles. Mainly coz very few people know it even exists at the moment. Also because, the only vehicles I've seen running on CNG have been fair average quality manure heaps. A very SLOW VS statesman and a 15 tonne kenworth from memory, although the truck did sound mean as. :evil3: Also i hear that CNG takes absolutely ages to fill up, I think because of the pressures it's stored at, might be wrong though, I know absolutely SFA about it as well

Originally Posted by bindi

Your last statement though Pandaman, WOOHOO I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY!

Why thank you ma'am, good to know someone agrees with me, other than the voices in my head. _2:

[PetesV8]

Wifes BA XT EGAS, after 2 weeks of back & fro to dealer with numerous problems, has finally bit the dust.

8 months old 47500kms, serviced at log book intervals, and requires complete rebuild / new engine.
Ford denies there is any inherent problems with the system

.......her fleet controller has 2 cars already with new engines and 3 more "playing" up, all E-Gas.

Interesting....

[Sprint347]

Originally Posted by PetesV8

Wifes BA XT EGAS, after 2 weeks of back & fro to dealer with numerous problems, has finally bit the dust.

8 months old 47500kms, serviced at log book intervals, and requires complete rebuild / new engine.
Ford denies there is any inherent problems with the system

.......her fleet controller has 2 cars already with new engines and 3 more "playing" up, all E-Gas.

Interesting....

well there you go.

[Racecraft]

the vialle convertor fills with sh|t and leans the engine out... It is comoon knowledge amongst the aftermarket fitters that the Egas cars are not 100 percent...Why do you think all the taxis are ULP cars converted with aftermarket systems?

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Racecraft

the vialle convertor fills with sh|t and leans the engine out... It is comoon knowledge amongst the aftermarket fitters that the Egas cars are not 100 percent...Why do you think all the taxis are ULP cars converted with aftermarket systems?

Does that mean that the aftermarket system allows the "sh]t" to pass through?

Where does the "sh]t" come from?

Isn't there a filter situated in the liquid line?

[Racecraft]

Yes there is a filter but once it is full it is inherently useless, The ECU can't/won't notice, and the gum eventually starts to lodge in the Vialle. The ECU seems to make so many adjustments to keep the car running on an insufficient quality/supply of LPG. We gave up and sold our 2 Egas cars and now use aftermarket kits on ULP cars. The aftermarket systems we have been fitting simply won't run if the gas can't get thru, well they will idle but not rev sufficiently, in a way acting as a failsafe to save the engine. Maybe it is a case of the superior factory system working well when it is better on the hip pocket for the cheaper system to give you signs of a problem??

The sh|t seems to be a tar like gum that is coming from a certain service stations LPG. Not every tank but more so a few 'bad batches' of LPG in a row... If you are not savvy to keeping everything A1, I have seen that a problem lies with the factory cars...

Any one with an Egas Falcon that is trouble free good luck to you, but with the diverse quality and amount of LPg I put thru my cars it wasn't worth the hassles...

[merlin]

Originally Posted by PetesV8

Wifes BA XT EGAS, after 2 weeks of back & fro to dealer with numerous problems, has finally bit the dust.

8 months old 47500kms, serviced at log book intervals, and requires complete rebuild / new engine.
Ford denies there is any inherent problems with the system

.......her fleet controller has 2 cars already with new engines and 3 more "playing" up, all E-Gas.

Interesting....

Just to put into perspective my best mate has had two council work cars - both XT E-Gas Falcons, did over 50,000kms in both, thrashed by all and sundry in the council and they were both still going strong when they went to auction.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Racecraft

Yes there is a filter but once it is full it is inherently useless, The ECU can't/won't notice, and the gum eventually starts to lodge in the Vialle. The ECU seems to make so many adjustments to keep the car running on an insufficient quality/supply of LPG. We gave up and sold our 2 Egas cars and now use aftermarket kits on ULP cars. The aftermarket systems we have been fitting simply won't run if the gas can't get thru, well they will idle but not rev sufficiently, in a way acting as a failsafe to save the engine. Maybe it is a case of the superior factory system working well when it is better on the hip pocket for the cheaper system to give you signs of a problem??

The sh|t seems to be a tar like gum that is coming from a certain service stations LPG. Not every tank but more so a few 'bad batches' of LPG in a row... If you are not savvy to keeping everything A1, I have seen that a problem lies with the factory cars...

Any one with an Egas Falcon that is trouble free good luck to you, but with the diverse quality and amount of LPg I put thru my cars it wasn't worth the hassles...

How can anyone blame product failure if the fault is of poor quality fuel?

Sorry, never heard that one before.

The reason Taxi's use aftermarket gas systems is because they purchase the vehicles second hand from the government auctions.

[Racecraft]

I am not blaming the product at all; I simply stated that due to issues taxi operators steer clear of the Egas cars. I cannot change the quality of LPg or make the drivers fill up at the same servo but I can minimise the problem by staying away from the factory LPg cars as the LPG problems seems to be more pronounced with the Vialle and factory systems.

Yes we do purchase our vehicles 2nd hand but the Egas cars are cheaper than their ULP brothers. We then have to spend another $1200 on the conversion... If the Egas cars were trouble free I would use them even if they were more expensive, but in my experience the 2 I've had were playing up with less than 50k on the odo...

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Racecraft

I am not blaming the product at all; I simply stated that due to issues taxi operators steer clear of the Egas cars. I cannot change the quality of LPg or make the drivers fill up at the same servo but I can minimise the problem by staying away from the factory LPg cars as the LPG problems seems to be more pronounced with the Vialle and factory systems.

Yes we do purchase our vehicles 2nd hand but the Egas cars are cheaper than their ULP brothers. We then have to spend another $1200 on the conversion... If the Egas cars were trouble free I would use them even if they were more expensive, but in my experience the 2 I've had were playing up with less than 50k on the odo...

I hate to keep this going, but miss-informing people is not on.

Yes, the Ford gas system will constantly adjust fuel flow, ignition timing, etc. through the ECU so as to allow the engine to run correctly, it does this with the same sensors as the petrol engine; knock sensor, oxygen sensor, etc.
This is the only way to make a combustion engine "environmentally friendly". A good quality aftermarket system will also use the sensors, but cannot be as environmentally friendly.
LPG has a very narrow window for ignition, too much fuel to air ignition is a struggle, and too little it is a struggle. So if a system is running too lean, the driver will know about it, no matter what system.
The biggest problem with LPG is running too rich, which doesn’t do a lot of good for the environment, but we won’t go there.
The Viale products are used by more companies than Ford and seem not to suffer the problem that you state, even Holden used them at one stage, and not sure what they use now.
The owners of Taxi’s do not purchase ULP Falcons because the Egas cars have a Viale system.
The gumming up that you mention occurred 2 – 4 years ago and caused problems in all gas vehicles, it was a fuel problem.

The Egas falcons are cheaper than the ULP Falcons because of demand, people know that LPG is harsh on engines they want a ‘virgin’. Most second hand LPG vehicles are cheaper than an equivalent ULP vehicle.

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=20429

$1200 is a very cheap gas fit, you either get huge discounts or use a very basic system. For the average buyer a good quality gas system would be between $2000 & $2500.

The Egas engine may have some problems, what engine doesn't, but they are not all failing from "gum build up".

All your previous points on LPG were excellent, but please don’t miss-inform.

[Racecraft]

Nice to have a mature sensible debate with you johnydep.. Thumbs up mate.

A few points in your last post that differ from my experience:-

Originally Posted by johnydep

This is the only way to make a combustion engine "environmentally friendly". A good quality aftermarket system will also use the sensors, but cannot be as environmentally friendly.

Yes 100 percent agree, but the OMVL systems that I use have manual adjustments on the convertor, A/F mixtures can be tweaked, something the Vialle convertors will not accomomodate.

Originally Posted by johnydep

So if a system is running too lean, the driver will know about it, no matter what system.

That is on the assumption that A) a driver has the ability to detect a lean engine, not simply attributting it as characteristic of an LPG powered car. B) In most cases being a fleet car that they actually even give a damn.

Originally Posted by johnydep

The Viale products are used by more companies than Ford and seem not to suffer the problem that you state, even Holden used them at one stage, and not sure what they use now.

I have had these problems with factory gas cars since the days of the factory dual fuel 'Tickford' installs; 99 percent of it revolves around the convertor. That would also marry up to the timeframe you quoted in reguards to a general fuel problem. I was keen when the Egas cars were released, as I said it is the cheaper alternative for a replacement taxi if they are reliable. The ones I have had let me down when they were still relatively 'fresh' and I simply cannot afford to chase my tail for the next 5 years or the useable life of the car.

Originally Posted by johnydep

The owners of Taxi’s do not purchase ULP Falcons because the Egas cars have a Viale system.

I am guessing you meant not not purchasing Egas cars? If you did the reasons why we do not buy the Egas cars comes down to relaiblitly of the Vialle system. Add to that the dollars and cents. For example an OMVL convertor is 1/3 the replacement cost of a Vialle. With the gumming up issue seeming to be paramount lately and hurting the reliablity hence earning capacity of my cabs I have to look at the most reliable car and system I can get.

Originally Posted by johnydep

$1200 is a very cheap gas fit, you either get huge discounts or use a very basic system. For the average buyer a good quality gas system would be between $2000 & $2500.

$1200 is what I am paying for the BA OMVL kits, they are installed by my mechanic as part of his general duties so I am not paying an isolated installation cost that I guess would be around the $500?? + mark-up on the kit to bring it in inline with an off the street install.

Originally Posted by johnydep

The Egas engine may have some problems, what engine doesn't, but they are not all failing from "gum build up".

I dont think it is the engine, simply under current conditions the Viale setup has let me down. And most of the problems with the Vialle are attributed to the gumming up affecting the A/F ratio. The LPG system is the only variable I have any power to change, but as some have had trouble free motoring I'd say it is not a major widespread issue that everyone will suffer but they concerned me and alot of multi fleet operators enough to look at different avenues.

Either way mate, I didn't intend to misimform anyone I was just trying to express my experience in relation to the Egas cars.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Racecraft

.......
Either way mate, I didn't intend to misimform anyone I was just trying to express my experience in relation to the Egas cars.

Fair enough.

Everyones experience is worth sharing, thanks for the info.

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by merlin

Just to put into perspective my best mate has had two council work cars - both XT E-Gas Falcons, did over 50,000kms in both, thrashed by all and sundry in the council and they were both still going strong when they went to auction.

My Fiancee's father has a BA XL ute EGAS 1-tonner ... and I have an AUII XLS EGAS ute ... both cars run like a dream ... and don't play up under load either.

Have heard the occasional small backfire when it comes time for replacing spark plugs on the BA though ... but that's at their "end of life". Other than that ... economy is good and power is fine.

I should have converted over to LPG a long time ago ... it's great.

I feel sorry for my Fiancee filling up the Territory all of the time on ULP ... it's gotta hurt on the hip pocket.

Also the price difference is getting larger ... as ULP goes up .. and LPG remains the same price (well it does in my area.)

[Matty4]

My eyes really hurt after reading all this but I thought I'd add my experiences of LPG.
I used to own an R31 Nissan Skyline that I converted to a dual fuel LPG system at 220,000k's. The conversion back in '97 cost me $1450. I borrowed the money for it and put the difference between what I was spending on petrol and what I was spending on LPG into the loan to pay it off. Paid it off in 9 months. From that point on I was in front. The car ran faultlessly. It was regularly serviced and tuned to LPG specs and the motor finally gave up after doing a head gasket at 530,000k's.

I then fitted a 2.0lt twincam turbo motor out of a newer import Skyline and ran that as a dual fuel setup for about 18 months before selling it. On it's last service and tune it was run on the dyno and the variation in power between LPG and petrol was 2kw's atw (139 vs 141).

If I could convert my current car to LPG I would but it just won't physically fit under the bonnet. My wife drives a Territory on a novated lease so I'm not too worried about petrol prices atm but I drive a twin turbo Subaru, not LPG friendly and needs PULP (at 150 cpl it's getting harder to swallow when I fill up)

Love both fuel types but from a purely cost basis i'd go LPG anyday.

My 2 cents.

Matty

[Philbie]

in my opinion - there is no comparison...

I've had them both, and even a diesel -

For a Falcon, Petrol is the go.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

The largest issue with Propane or LPG, is delivery, and temperature. Vapourization at high daytime temperatures making the mixture Lean.
Freezing of various LPG components in cold climates making the bloody thing not even run. Try operating in minus temperatures sometime on LPG. Best of luck.

Keep in mind higher compression for pure LPG to draw more power also creates more heat upon combustion! More heat, higher coolant temperatures and the knock on effects from that in warm climates..

Not an issue here, Summer temps around 35c to 41c. Winter down to -1c [it was a mild winter this year.]
Never had ANY problems starting or overheating in the 4 years we had our previous dual fuel car. ['94 Sportsman]

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Waggajag

Not an issue here, Summer temps around 35c to 41c. Winter down to -1c [it was a mild winter this year.]
Never had ANY problems starting or overheating in the 4 years we had our previous dual fuel car. ['94 Sportsman]

I have to compliment you on your install Waggajag, after having had so many extol the virtues of LPG to me only to show off engine bays littered with cheapo relays and circuit breakers, cabling and hoses everywhere, a myriad of schotchlok connectors and dodgy crimps, far too many lpg installations look like they have been done by chimps using cutlery as tools.

Your pics show that professional and reliable instals can be achieved.

[GasoLane]

Thanks, but I cant take the credit for that.
We bought the car from Duhig Ford in Melb and they organised the fitting.... Supergas Auto in Keilor rd Melb.

The system comes in handy for impressing non car people, I tell 'em all the pipes are for the turbo! :-)

Roger