Road rule loop-holes

[Cav]

Five months on I am still in complaining mode to the Police and Police Minister about a situation where another car backed into mine. CCTV footage shows the accident but because the rego plates cannot be seen, it is therefore inconclusive.

Basically it is one person's word word against another.

Insurance will do nothing even though the other guy was identified.

It seems this sort of thing happens all the time.

The lesson?

Whatever you've done - just deny it. The law, the Police, privacy provisions and the courts will protect you.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by jamesson1980

I'm aware this thread may be removed as I've discussed police/insurance in here but I'l give it a go because I'm really saddened by something that happened on the weekend that has given me the feeling the law can't be trusted to protect the innocent. It seems that every road incident is a 50/50 gamble on whether or not the police work will be done right.

Saturday night (nov. 13) my sister was coming out of a T-intersection thru a green light in a string of other cars. A girl came flying thru the red, hitting my sister's car in the drivers door, destroying both cars and giving both drivers severe bruising. Of all the people who were standing around after seeing the incident, the police didn't approach one, therefore, no witness statement, therefore "the colour of the lights at the time is unknown so they are not a factor in this case..". So now the default yield rule applies under which my sister needed to give way to her right and as she did not, due to the green light, she's at fault. The other uninsured motorist gets paid out, and my sister with only her third party bomb insurance gets nothing but an excess bill.

So not only has the random drunken fist of justice punched her in the face, her insurance have left her for dead too.

I'm fuming over this, and so are all family and friends. I thought I'd put it out here for other frequent road users to read and input any experiences they may have had where laziness, incompetence, and lack of commonsense have led to a crash victim paying the price.

You have every right to approach a Senior Sargent at the local Police Station and demand action

[DBourne]

You have to be kidding! Hope it all works out mate

[NAK302]

Originally Posted by Cav

Whatever you've done - just deny it. The law, the Police, privacy provisions and the courts will protect you.

[Dave3911]

Why do people always jump up and down and blame the police for not "doing enough" when it comes to their civil disputes with insurance companies. Be proactive and look after your own interests. They did their job & they detirmined they didnt have enough evidence for an infringement..... This is totally different to evidence gathering re civil liability and isn't their problem. You seem like you were there.... you should've taken some responsibility yourself and grabbed some names of any witnesses.....

I find it very unlikely that anyone came forward as a witness, willing to give a statement and the Police did nothing. The fact is, nobody approached them and nobody was obviously a witness - as if that was the case, you'd have their details as no doubt you wouldve seen them too. You cant expect police, at a minor accident, to start canvasing the area and door knocking for witnesses - Everyone here crys foul whenever they get a minor traffic ticket because the Police should be doing something "more productive" - yet we want them to waste hours investigating a minor fender bender so they can issue a disobey traffic control signal ticket?

Take it as a learning experience - Police are there to uphold the law, not protect you from your own civil liability.

[jamesson1980]

Originally Posted by Yaw

I want more info, who is taking the lights out of the equation? The police or the insurer ?

YAW, it's the insurance company discounting the traffic lights. The attending officer will not make a ruling one way or the other unless there was at least one witness who saw what colour the lights were at the time of impact. He says he is powerless to do so. And as it was wet plus there was no observations or records made by the police at the time, there will be no other way of getting him to see what actually happened. So as it stands now, the police have called it NO OUTCOME.

It's the insurance company that have told my mum (who is dealing with it on my sister's behalf) that if we make a claim, the insurer will need to obtain the police report which will state NO OUTCOME, therefore they must use the give way to thru traffic rule and as my sister was on the side road not the main road, she failed to do so.. long story short.. if we claim, all we succeed in doing is paying an excess to fix the other girl's car.

[jamesson1980]

Originally Posted by Yaw

...If there is no witness and both stating they had a green light it is conflicting versions. neither can be proven...

My sister is claiming she had the green light, the other party is claiming she was braking for the amber but slid thru the intersection (sounds partially like an admission of fault). Although she wouldn't have an amber if my sister had green.. the whole thing goes red for several seconds before there's any green. Also as another member said above, we're arguing that on a dual lane both ways road with an 80km/h limit, if my sister was dumb enough to break thru a red light, she's be cleaned up by many cars, not just one. Anyway, thanks for all the feedback and glad to know we're not the only ones to have hit legal hurdles like this. I will keep this thread updated.

[jaydee]

Well said Dave3911.
Even though there were people standing around they may not have necessarily seen the prang.
You know what it's like, you hear a screech and a bang, look around "Oh my God, someone just had a prang". Didn't see it, but heard it, sorry can't help as a witness.

[jamesson1980]

Thanks for the input Dave, please don't think I'm police bashing, god knows they do enough around the place. They've delivered a dead end result for us because that's all they can do given the evidence surrounding them at the time. So be it. They most likely went and did far greater deeds straight afterwards anyway.

I didn't mean to be jumping up and down, crying and littering the forum with tales of my minor little fender bender but for my sister, her car was her little world, possibly like your car is to you. And to have another driver turn it into a steel boomerang, almost snapping her spine in the t-bone hit, she wants something done.. and whether you like the sound of it or not, I don't blame her and will back her up.

Also, it's about the replacement of her hard earned car, it ain't about the signal ticket, obviously you're just joking there.. one would hope.

[FgNewbie]

Originally Posted by Cav

*snip* Whatever you've done - just deny it. The law, the Police, privacy provisions and the courts will protect you.

I'd phrase it differently but I agree with the principle.

I nearly got charged with bashing someone because the offenders fabricated witnesses. "Honesty pays" is sometimes best left for fairytales.

I'm not police bashing either but "minor" is a relative term. A minor accident can still give rise to life long disabilities. (I'm not suggesting they treat every accident as a crime scene).

"almost snapping her spine in the t-bone hit" <removed>. I hope your sister bounces back fighting fit.

Don't give up, you might get lucky with a camera or a witness.

[jamesson1980]

Thanks FGnewbie, I'm very sorry to hear about your nephew, that is awful. My little sis is fine, and thanks for the thought. She's out of hospital but still in bed, just very stiff and sore. With all our disappointment regarding the collision we are obviously very thankful that both girls are now ok.

[FgNewbie]

Great to hear she is out of hospital.

Thanks jammesson, I removed the comment. It didn't need to be in this thread. (He went this year so its still very fresh).

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by jamesson1980

My sister is claiming she had the green light, the other party is claiming she was braking for the amber but slid thru the intersection (sounds partially like an admission of fault). Although she wouldn't have an amber if my sister had green.. the whole thing goes red for several seconds before there's any green. Also as another member said above, we're arguing that on a dual lane both ways road with an 80km/h limit, if my sister was dumb enough to break thru a red light, she's be cleaned up by many cars, not just one. Anyway, thanks for all the feedback and glad to know we're not the only ones to have hit legal hurdles like this. I will keep this thread updated.

Seek a solicitor. The other driver has made admission they didnt have a green light, if thats in writing, it wont be hard to get a solicitor to sort it.

On balance of probabilities, your sister is telling the truth based on that statement.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by jamesson1980

It's the insurance company that have told my mum (who is dealing with it on my sister's behalf) that if we make a claim, the insurer will need to obtain the police report which will state NO OUTCOME, therefore they must use the give way to thru traffic rule and as my sister was on the side road not the main road, she failed to do so.. long story short.. if we claim, all we succeed in doing is paying an excess to fix the other girl's car.

If there is no dispute that the lights were working as you say the other driver says they had a yellow etc.... then the insurance company is full of it.
The traffic lights were in operation. If it cant be decided what colour they were too bad. The insurance company is not allowed to make up road rules to suit the claim, which is what it is doing.
If the lights were not working ONLY then do the road rules revert to the T-intersection rules....

You shouldve clarified your orginal statement as it infers you were having a go at the Police when your drama is the insurance company.

This isnt a loophole in road rules....

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

If there is no dispute that the lights were working as you say the other driver says they had a yellow etc.... then the insurance company is full of it.

If you are to take the other persons version it would mean that "our" driver had a red light.

That is where the dispute lies.

jamesson1980

In case you are not aware. I work for an insurance company in recoveries and settlements. I am happy to help guide you through how to deal with this if you want. PM the insurer and the exact type of policy and dates the policy runs for. (I am asking for this information so I can look up the appropriate PDS to know what that companies procedures and polices are.)

PM me if you want to take up the offer of help.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by FgNewbie

I nearly got charged with bashing someone because the offenders fabricated witnesses. "Honesty pays" is sometimes best left for fairytales.

Read my sig

Roger

[FgNewbie]

[GreenR]

Not to offend anyone but at the end of the day insurance companies are a business. they will do whatever they can to minimize losses and paying out money.

[jamesson1980]

Ok, sorry to drag up this old thread, but for those who read and offered concern or advice, the matter has been settled. A witness had indeed approached one of the officers at the scene but not the one dealing with the case and somehow, that crucial bit of info was lost in lack of communication between the two. Never mind, all's well that ends well.

So with an accurate police report in hand, we approach our insurance who offered lowest possible market value with all towing and excess deducted, leaving us with $900 for a car that is $2,500 - $3,200 on paper and my sister proven not at fault. Just as we were about to contest the claim, the other uninsured driver (upon being sent a red light infringement) suddenly had insurance.. strange but true. Anyway, her insurance called Ready Car Insurance (never heard of em'?? me either) came and assessed the car at our house, and a cheque for $3,200 is in the mail.

Thanks again for everyone's input, and thankfully a happy ending for us. But not for AAMI who have lost our entire family's business = 7 multi home/car policies and 5 car only policies over trying to worm out of a $3,000 car claim.

[mick10010]

Originally Posted by GT-0733

typical........
i figured long ago Police are only human, which is why i disrespect them the way i do. i cannot ever remember anything good when dealing with them. period.

Reading that made me want to jump of a tall building. What a twat

[LTDHO]

Originally Posted by Dave3911

Why do people always jump up and down and blame the police for not "doing enough" when it comes to their civil disputes with insurance companies. Be proactive and look after your own interests. They did their job & they detirmined they didnt have enough evidence for an infringement..... This is totally different to evidence gathering re civil liability and isn't their problem. You seem like you were there.... you should've taken some responsibility yourself and grabbed some names of any witnesses.....

People are often shook up after they are involved in an accident. When they police attent, they suggest you do not discuss incident with anyone. They obtain the information they need if they wish to charge anyone, or at least enough to complete a report.
Sad thing is, they tell the victims that the ‘police report’ can be obtained by the insurer via either phone or online, unfortuneately this is a complete lie. Which distresses the victim again later.

Originally Posted by Dave3911

I find it very unlikely that anyone came forward as a witness, willing to give a statement and the Police did nothing. The fact is, nobody approached them and nobody was obviously a witness - as if that was the case, you'd have their details as no doubt you wouldve seen them too. You cant expect police, at a minor accident, to start canvasing the area and door knocking for witnesses - Everyone here crys foul whenever they get a minor traffic ticket because the Police should be doing something "more productive" - yet we want them to waste hours investigating a minor fender bender so they can issue a disobey traffic control signal ticket?

It is highly unlikely a witness will come forward. Most do not want to be involved. It would not be hard, for a person with authority (police) to approach witnesses.

Originally Posted by Dave3911

Take it as a learning experience - Police are there to uphold the law, not protect you from your own civil liability.

Sure, keep believing that.

Originally Posted by plarazza

Not to offend anyone but at the end of the day insurance companies are a business. they will do whatever they can to minimize losses and paying out money.

You obviously didn’t read the original thread.
In the case the insurance company is loosing big time. It is within their interest to hold the other person at fault so they can recover.