Lincoln considering performance line

[outback_ute]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I think Ford would rather build a new platform from scratch for Lincoln rather than use E8 simply due to the not made here syndrome. They keep saying One Ford, but only if it suits them, stiff *** to anyone else.

Hence Mustang and F series stay on their own, and Ford US rejects Ranger, Falcon etc.

I agree unfortunately. They are talking about using AWD (FWD-based) to get the performance feel (good luck with the weight distribution...), and the Falcon is just not on the radar. Mustang is exempt from the One Ford mantra because it is the Mustang, F150 because of the volumes (which is fair enough), although there must be a case for merging F150 & Ranger and leaving the F250+ HD pickups to cover people who actually need that much vehicle.

Then again hopefully they are just very good at keeing secrets and there is a place for the Falcon to continue. I think a feasible scenario would be forget the low-priced Falcons (new Mondeo/Fusion replacement to take over) and pair a more refined Falcon with a Lincoln as has been outlined above. Mustang can pick up whatever appropriate componentry, similarly a Falcon ute could emerge to also sell in the US as a small pickup for people who don't want F-series. Trouble is there is a big rift between what a Lincoln needs and a Mustang that starts below US$25k (same for a base Falcon or ute)

[Road_Warrior]

Mustang is not exempt from the One Ford deal. It (and the platform it rides on) will need to be a global product to justify the spend on the next gen car.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

I agree unfortunately. They are talking about using AWD (FWD-based) to get the performance feel (good luck with the weight distribution...), and the Falcon is just not on the radar. Mustang is exempt from the One Ford mantra because it is the Mustang, F150 because of the volumes (which is fair enough), although there must be a case for merging F150 & Ranger and leaving the F250+ HD pickups to cover people who actually need that much vehicle.

Then again hopefully they are just very good at keeing secrets and there is a place for the Falcon to continue. I think a feasible scenario would be forget the low-priced Falcons (new Mondeo/Fusion replacement to take over) and pair a more refined Falcon with a Lincoln as has been outlined above. Mustang can pick up whatever appropriate componentry, similarly a Falcon ute could emerge to also sell in the US as a small pickup for people who don't want F-series. Trouble is there is a big rift between what a Lincoln needs and a Mustang that starts below US$25k (same for a base Falcon or ute)

Jay Mays is at best... an art critic... who gives the nod to a defined company directive on how Ford cars should look.

We already have AWD. They already have AWD. We could make the next Territory platform a performance north-south RWD/AWD platform for Ford and Lincoln at the top end in the US. For Medium/large cars. Or at least co-develop... building off what we have here, so that they can make sure they have their precious Hybrid tree hugging technology or whatever.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Mustang is not exempt from the One Ford deal. It (and the platform it rides on) will need to be a global product to justify the spend on the next gen car.

Don't count on it. The F-Trucks were vetoed from the all seeing eyes of 'One Ford' because it's a top seller.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Don't count on it. The F-Trucks were vetoed from the all seeing eyes of 'One Ford' because it's a top seller.

I fail to see the relationship. The F-series is a high-profit volume seller whereas the Mustang quite clearly isn't a volume seller and needs a larger market footprint in order for development funds to be recouped for the next gen car.

The Mustang does not enjoy the 'quarantine' status from One Ford global platforms like the F-series.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I fail to see the relationship. The F-series is a high-profit volume seller whereas the Mustang quite clearly isn't a volume seller and needs a larger market footprint in order for development funds to be recouped for the next gen car.

The Mustang does not enjoy the 'quarantine' status from One Ford global platforms like the F-series.

Well not the way they talked it up last time about being a top selling car for fifty years. And how it's and American icon... blah blah. Can't remember the article.

But it did sell 23,599 units in April this year.... (outsold by the fat bloated commodore all Americans claim to hate.) in a market of 300 million. Which would probably make it comparable to the Falcon in terms of sales over here. But you don't here anything about killing that off and turning it into a FWD EcoBoost with a hatch back. Sure it'd get about 250'000 units out of the millions of vehicles every year. But it's not a sad story like Falcon is. Even though back in the day Ford sold a metric tonne more Mustangs than it does now. But it's an American icon, which matters to the American executives, and American people. So Jay Mays said it's got fifty years of life left in it.

We can only pray and hope that Ford is debuting the GRWD architecture with Mustang come 2015 or would appear more like they will make a Mustang tophat or 'Mercury Cougar' for Lincoln, rather then something that could save Falcon also.

[Road_Warrior]

Mulally is on record as saying that there will be one rear wheel drive platform and "it will be available around the world".

Now, platform sharing doesn't have to mean the cars have the same bodyshells or chassis. The expensive parts are the vehicle systems. Suspension modules, powertrains, electrical systems etc. What you can see, to use a favourite term of Mullaly's, going forward, is that a next gen Mustang and "some other car" could get away with being platform buddies by having common suspension modules, brakes, powertrains and electrical systems. We're getting there with the powertrains - the Ecoboost I4T is a global motor and the new 6 speed auto in the new Territory is straight from the global parts bin as well. So the more they can make the two meet in the middle of the road with common parts, the greater chance both them and us have of keeping our iconic cars.

I can forsee the next gen Mustang using the FG Falcon's front suspension. Although I wouldnt wish the Control Blade IRS upon the yanks - a common IRS module would need to be developed.

[Buntz]

Global platforms aren't like that though. They don't want to have to spend more money making similar parts work in a different format... even if that saves costs. They want it to be one underpinning. Identical... but with different tophats.

Unless of course I am mistaken.... but judging by the products available from Ford in the US... many of which are the same vehicle... I may not be.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Global platforms aren't like that though. They don't want to have to spend more money making similar parts work in a different format... even if that saves costs. They want it to be one underpinning. Identical... but with different tophats.

Unless of course I am mistaken.... but judging by the products available from Ford in the US... many of which are the same vehicle... I may not be.

It doesn't have to be that way. The Taurus and Explorer may well be very similar under the skin. But that came more about from the timeframes and budgets available at the time. These were developed during some pretty dire financial times.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Mulally is on record as saying that there will be one rear wheel drive platform and "it will be available around the world".

Now, platform sharing doesn't have to mean the cars have the same bodyshells or chassis. The expensive parts are the vehicle systems. Suspension modules, powertrains, electrical systems etc.

It's these really expensive modules that soak up the cash. BTW In your previous post about the Falcon Ute having a different rear to the sedan and how this application / method use for years by Ford Aus is what will be required by Ford NA for the different versions is spot on.

http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/new...stang_platform

Originally Posted by Mulally

"We're going to have a large sedan. The whole thing about rear-wheel drive? We're going to have a rear-wheel drive car," Mulally said. "And we've got the Mustang. So you can imagine, going forward, that there will be a next version of the Falcon that will be even better. In capital letters."

Pretty clearly, Mullaly is talking about a RWD sedan AND the Mustang.

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

We're getting there with the powertrains - the Ecoboost I4T is a global motor and the new 6 speed auto in the new Territory is straight from the global parts bin as well. So the more they can make the two meet in the middle of the road with common parts, the greater chance both them and us have of keeping our iconic cars.

Indeed. RWD I4T developed locally. Then V6/V6T already in F Truck / Mustang will find it's way here when the I6 goes. Our Miami V8SC then Coyote V8. The transition over to the ZF copy / Ford corporate 6R80 gearbox as fitted to the V6TD in Territory. Diesel will be required if GRWD goes to Europe. So, the work done by Ford AUs wll be invaluable. I imagine this 6R80 will be fitted to the EcoBoost I4T too.

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I can forsee the next gen Mustang using the FG Falcon's front suspension.

Me too! Next step is Territory EPAS.

[Bossxr8]

The Territory's EPAS system is actually from the Mustang, adapted to suit.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by phillyc

It's these really expensive modules that soak up the cash. BTW In your previous post about the Falcon Ute having a different rear to the sedan and how this application / method use for years by Ford Aus is what will be required by Ford NA for the different versions is spot on.

http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/new...stang_platform
Pretty clearly, Mullaly is talking about a RWD sedan AND the Mustang.
Indeed. RWD I4T developed locally. Then V6/V6T already in F Truck / Mustang will find it's way here when the I6 goes. Our Miami V8SC then Coyote V8. The transition over to the ZF copy / Ford corporate 6R80 gearbox as fitted to the V6TD in Territory. Diesel will be required if GRWD goes to Europe. So, the work done by Ford AUs wll be invaluable. I imagine this 6R80 will be fitted to the EcoBoost I4T too.

Me too! Next step is Territory EPAS.

Correctamundo. It's not hard to join the dots. The big question will be: how much (if any) of the next gen RWD car will be made here?

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The Territory's EPAS system is actually from the Mustang, adapted to suit.

True. But, when engineered for Territory, it ended up with 3 attachment points to the vehicle which aids refinement and steering feel as well as reducing kickback IIRC.

[Road_Warrior]

This is interesting:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/09/f...ang-v6-perfor/

Basically Ford are bringing out a limited run, V6 'sports' model of the Mustang to appeal to less cashed-up buyers. But check the power specs:

The Mayhem package features a 305-horsepower, 3.7-liter V6,

That's 227kw. That's a lot for an n/a V6 and could be the engine we will get in the post-2016 world if we continue with a RWD Falcon or equivalent.

Interestingly, if Ford had have continued with the I6 shutdown and conversion to the V6, we could have almost had it now!

[Bossxr8]

It would have been V6 last July if it had of gone ahead, but I don't think we would have got the full spec 3.7 like the Mustang as it probably wouldn't have been ready. Ours probably would have had only VCT on the inlet cam and a lower spec. 206 kw?

[FPV GTHO]

By 2016 they'll likely have a new variant out as well. They may even have a new variant ready for 2014 Mustang.

[outback_ute]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Jay Mays is at best... an art critic... who gives the nod to a defined company directive on how Ford cars should look.

I'm not referring to J Mays, it was a recent interview with the vice president of Global Product Programs.

I want to see the Falcon continue on a GRWD architecture as much as anyone, but I'm not sure how that works when the next Mustang is coming out for the 50th anniversary in 2014 and the Falcon a couple of years later? The clock must be ticking on a final decision...

Just looked up the sales of the Mustang, back in 2000 they were running >160k per year, since 2007 sales have really dropped off to 66k last year. I would attribute most of the decline being due to the shocking state of the US economy, a Mustang is an indulgent purchase & would be one of the first things to go if things are tight (buy a cheaper sedan instead).

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

I want to see the Falcon continue on a GRWD architecture as much as anyone, but I'm not sure how that works when the next Mustang is coming out for the 50th anniversary in 2014 and the Falcon a couple of years later? The clock must be ticking on a final decision...

This is where the sharing of suspension modules and other systems comes into it - see my post above. They don't necessarily have to share chassis architecture (in fact it would be bad if they did, because one would compromise the other), they could share the key chassis modules like front and rear suspension (the expensive bits) as per the One Ford biz, but still remain unique to satisfy their target market.

This also makes me think that the 2014 Mustang will sill ride on an evolved S197 platform but with common systems to the Falcon because if an all new platform was being developed, it would surely be starting to surface right about now.

[outback_ute]

I suppose we will have an indication then when the 2014 Mustang launches - will it have struts or double wishbone virtual pivot front suspension?

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

I'm not referring to J Mays, it was a recent interview with the vice president of Global Product Programs.

I want to see the Falcon continue on a GRWD architecture as much as anyone, but I'm not sure how that works when the next Mustang is coming out for the 50th anniversary in 2014 and the Falcon a couple of years later? The clock must be ticking on a final decision...

Just looked up the sales of the Mustang, back in 2000 they were running >160k per year, since 2007 sales have really dropped off to 66k last year. I would attribute most of the decline being due to the shocking state of the US economy, a Mustang is an indulgent purchase & would be one of the first things to go if things are tight (buy a cheaper sedan instead).

Well Mustang could be laying down some ground work for platform sharing, or parts sharing program.

Originally Posted by phillyc

It's these really expensive modules that soak up the cash. BTW In your previous post about the Falcon Ute having a different rear to the sedan and how this application / method use for years by Ford Aus is what will be required by Ford NA for the different versions is spot on.

http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/new...stang_platform
Pretty clearly, Mullaly is talking about a RWD sedan AND the Mustang.
Indeed. RWD I4T developed locally. Then V6/V6T already in F Truck / Mustang will find it's way here when the I6 goes. Our Miami V8SC then Coyote V8. The transition over to the ZF copy / Ford corporate 6R80 gearbox as fitted to the V6TD in Territory. Diesel will be required if GRWD goes to Europe. So, the work done by Ford AUs wll be invaluable. I imagine this 6R80 will be fitted to the EcoBoost I4T too.

Me too! Next step is Territory EPAS.

Well you do make a good case for it. And I hate being negative about such things. But Mulally wants global platforms. Cars off a single underpinning. But maybe he'd make an exception in this case.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

I'm not referring to J Mays, it was a recent interview with the vice president of Global Product Programs.

I want to see the Falcon continue on a GRWD architecture as much as anyone, but I'm not sure how that works when the next Mustang is coming out for the 50th anniversary in 2014 and the Falcon a couple of years later? The clock must be ticking on a final decision...

Just looked up the sales of the Mustang, back in 2000 they were running >160k per year, since 2007 sales have really dropped off to 66k last year. I would attribute most of the decline being due to the shocking state of the US economy, a Mustang is an indulgent purchase & would be one of the first things to go if things are tight (buy a cheaper sedan instead).

Excellent link Outback! Quite a long interview at about 52 minutes. Some interesting insights, but not too much given away about future planning. Interestingly it was mentioned that there was only 1 RWD platform which was Mustang, then later it was like oh yeah we have 2 platforms. But to her credit, Barb Samardzich has only been in the role a few months.

About the Mustang sales. It is an indulgant purchase. However, YTD 2011 Mustang is a fair way up on last year, which should mean 80,000 pa. In a market which now has 3 competitors (Mustang, Camaro & Challenger) it is doing well.

Originally Posted by Outback_ute

I suppose we will have an indication then when the 2014 Mustang launches - will it have struts or double wishbone virtual pivot front suspension?

reckon that could be a VERY good indicator!

[Buntz]

She stammered and said: "That recognition that we do need a luxury bland... ahh, brand."

I almost choked on air.