Carbon fiber, composite plastic parts - why arent there more?

[turbodewd]

From enquiries Ive made I believe a carbon fiber bonnet can shave 15kg off a Falcon compared to the factory steel one. In the 1980s a carbon fiber hood was a factory option. Is there any reason Ford couldnt offer this on the XR range as an option?

Also, the bootlid, does this really need to be steel? Its quite a bit of metal, surely this could be made of something lighter. Is anyone a guru on this stuff and the cost of making them?

[Nikked]

Ummm....CF is a bit to expensive to just throw on a production family sedan...


Greater luck be had with Aluminum...BMW's use plastic guards on the X-series...

[66FAIRLANE]

I remember reading something about this somewhere a while back. IIRC it has something to do with longevity and maybe even recyclability.

[Peter B - CV8]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Ummm....CF is a bit to expensive to just throw on a production family sedan...


Greater luck be had with Aluminum...BMW's use plastic guards on the X-series...

Exactly - have you seen just how labour intensive it is to create a carbon fibre panel/part. Far easier & cheaper to just pump out thousands of metal pressed parts.

[Yellow_Festiva]

More costly to produce, harder to repair... the material also displays different characteristics to metal so extra engineering needs to be done to accommodate....

Was CF really an option in the 80's?? Perhaps you're thinking fibre glass??

[Bossxr8]

Cabonfibre parts fitted to the front end like a bonnet would require crash testing, and that costs millions.

Its also expensive and time consuming to manufacture. There's a reason why its usually only high end supercars that use CF.

[turbodewd]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

More costly to produce, harder to repair... the material also displays different characteristics to metal so extra engineering needs to be done to accommodate....

Was CF really an option in the 80's?? Perhaps you're thinking fibre glass??

Sorry, yes i meant fiberglass.

[Airmon]

Lots of issues here, its not as straightforward as just swapping panels over.

Costs, Safety, strength, reliability, durability, quality, customer expectations, toolings, etc. Sooner or later it wouldn't suprise me if we went to composite panels, but right now would you go out and spend $40-50K on a Falcon with a plastic boot?

[Franco Cozzo]

Carbon fibre also doesn't bend or dint, I'm fairly sure it shatters into a million pieces, might not be too good for pedestrian safety. Maybe they should look into Aluminium instead?

Or even plastics, you can do some amazing stuff in plastic.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Airmon

Lots of issues here, its not as straightforward as just swapping panels over.

Costs, Safety, strength, reliability, durability, quality, customer expectations, toolings, etc. Sooner or later it wouldn't suprise me if we went to composite panels, but right now would you go out and spend $40-50K on a Falcon with a plastic boot?

People spend 70 grand on a corvette with a fiberglass body and wood floor...


Plastic composites are finding there way in to cars...the VE has a GRP (glass fiber reinforced plastic) boot floor and radiator support.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Carbon fibre also doesn't bend or dint, I'm fairly sure it shatters into a million pieces, might not be too good for pedestrian safety. Maybe they should look into Aluminium instead?

Or even plastics, you can do some amazing stuff in plastic.

i had a truck with an aluminium cab, the stuff dents pretty easy.

[1TUFFUTE]

i think plastic wouldve been a shoe in for some body parts/sheets for car shells. I know bmw and even the nissan xtrail has flexible front quarter gaurds that pop in and out but weigh zilch...

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by Nikked

People spend 70 grand on a corvette with a fiberglass body and wood floor...


Plastic composites are finding there way in to cars...the VE has a GRP (glass fiber reinforced plastic) boot floor and radiator support.

FG has a plastic rad support too.

Only the previous shape Xtrail has plastic guards, current one went back to steel.

Problem with them is its very hard to get paint to match on both steel and plastic panels, and cant be painted at the same time in the factory.

Front guards a pretty light even in steel. Youd be only saving grams, not kgs.

[ray38l]

There is technology out there to mass produce carbon fibre parts but the cost to do it is huge.
Fibreglass could be a good middle ground if it didnt shatter on impact. The best we can hope for on the local cars is more use of plastic and aluminium to reduce weight

[casabonka]

Carbon fibre also ends up as sharp debris... Great to be lying on the road to create puncture after puncture.

[perthfggsute]

my 06 wrx has an aluminium bonnet as standard from the factory.im not sure what else is ali on it.boot lid and bonnet would be the way to go on any performance orientated car.

[Nikked]

Couple of Misconceptions here...


Carbon fiber has good crash properties and can absorb impact without 'splintering into pieces'. This is achieved though different layers of weave and resin mixtures to each particular component. Using Epoxy based resins makes CF quite flexible.

If you look look up the 787 dreamliner, you'll see a good demonstration of the flexibility of CF. The 787 is made almost from CFRP, and there are quite a few videos of the wings flexing as they gain lift.

CF has already made its way into some more expensive Road cars...the BMW M3 has a CF roof, the Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren features a full carbon fiber body.


So any theorys about CF not being crash worthy are redundant.

Its still a cost/implementation thing.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Problem with them is its very hard to get paint to match on both steel and plastic panels, and cant be painted at the same time in the factory.

i thought that was a big issue as well. you only have to look at how the bumper section on many cars looks slightly different to the steel panels. in my opinion they get away with it, because of shape of the panels. i had always thought it would be hard to colour match a fibreglass panel that virtually had no curves

[2011G6E]

Having seen the results of a Corvette that was comprehensively stuffed after hitting a supposedly "break off at the ground" post some years back, and considering the number of big roos out here, I'll take steel, thank you...

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Couple of Misconceptions here...


Carbon fiber has good crash properties and can absorb impact without 'splintering into pieces'. This is achieved though different layers of weave and resin mixtures to each particular component. Using Epoxy based resins makes CF quite flexible.

If you look look up the 787 dreamliner, you'll see a good demonstration of the flexibility of CF. The 787 is made almost from CFRP, and there are quite a few videos of the wings flexing as they gain lift.

CF has already made its way into some more expensive Road cars...the BMW M3 has a CF roof, the Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren features a full carbon fiber body.


So any theorys about CF not being crash worthy are redundant.

Its still a cost/implementation thing.

Exactly what I was about to say. Carbon fibre wouldn't be used in FSAE vehicles classes quite a lot if this WASN'T the case (due to safety requirements).

The actual layup of carbon fibre is a pain the a, and needs people who know what they are doing, and is a laborious process that has a lot of safety implications as well.

AS for composite plastics, they are making their way into vehicles, however the decent ones can be expensive (or were when we were looking at them a couple of years ago at uni, no doubt it's changed, a lot), and so again, unfeasible.

It all comes down to cost of raw materials, ease of manufacture, required skills for manufacture, and cost of implementation.

[Nikked]

Some more interesting facts...

The Astra since the TS has had plastic lower control links on the front, and plastic has also been used to create engine blocks in the past.

Further evidence of carbon fibers flexibility is its use as springs for amputee's, where a spring takes the place of the foot. F1 cars are now starting to use carbon fiber for suspension links...


And, fiberglass not flexible?

Bob Kotmel's Ch9 camaro (famous for trying to finish bathurst on its roof) featured Fiberglass leaf springs...

...and the corvette?

If balsawood floors wern't crazy enough...corvette features a fiberglass monoleaf IRS rear.

[Neale]

there are more plastic parts in cars than you would think.

e.g.in my '06 focus some parts I know of that are plastic are the rad support, front & rear bar, all of the lights, cam cover, inlet manifold

[2011G6E]

The other thing with carbon fiber is that there's no such thing as "cheap" carbon fiber...there appears to be good, and bad, with no in between. I've known guys with motorbikes putting on carbon front and rear hugger guards made of CF...the good ones, smal as they are, cost hundreds, but stay beautiful and glossy and deep for years...the cheap ones last maybe a year in the Australian sun before going grey and starting to chip at the edges...

[Nikked]

Most of the carbon bonnets that you see have a construction of a single carbonfiber sheet over a fiberglass base...purely cosmetic, and use polyester resin (basically whats used in fiberglass). This is why they crack, deleminate and chip easy.

[turbodewd]

Originally Posted by Airmon

Lots of issues here, its not as straightforward as just swapping panels over.

Costs, Safety, strength, reliability, durability, quality, customer expectations, toolings, etc. Sooner or later it wouldn't suprise me if we went to composite panels, but right now would you go out and spend $40-50K on a Falcon with a plastic boot?

yes I would if it was part of a strategy to shave weight off the car. Its just like smart phone wars. Some people like the 141g iPhone 4...i prefer the Samsung Galaxy S which is 116g despite having a bigger screen! Its coz Samsung use plastic while Apple use metal and glass. The Samsung is so light!

If the bootlid looked okay they could make it from high-tech super light frozen cheese for all I care. Shave them kilos i say!

[data_mine]

The idea that carbon fibre splinters, comes from F1, where they're making it to be as light as possible, this involves, using as little material as possible, and laying it up in only the directions needed for the loads it'll see in regular use. Apply a load in a direction it's not built for and it's weak as wet cardboard, go with the design, and they hold up the 1,000kg+ of down force a modern F1 can generate.

CF used in planes and cars, is built with utmost safety and longevity in mind, they don't splinter, they break more like safety glass, the resin fractures while the fibres hold it altogether.

[boris]

Has anyone heard of e2 this is a web site and tv series that talks about green technology. One particular episode talks about transport technologies, and they speak of a organization ( which i think was apart of a university) that came up with a way to use cheap carbon fibre to make car bodies. These vehicles out performed steel based cars in crash test. The weight was 40% of a steel car body and was 60% of the cost to manufacture. Why don't car companies use carbon fibre then? Because there is a whole industry surrounding the use of steel in vehicle manufacture suppliers etc. who are making money and employ people, this is not a conspiracy theory it is fact. Carbon fibre would require vehicle manufactures throwing out all the design research etc in solved in steel body construction, there is just too much money invested in the use of steel in vehicles. But imagine a Falcon weighing 800-1000kg at 60% of the cost, the technology is there we just won't see it until some one takes the risk.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Neale

there are more plastic parts in cars than you would think.

e.g.in my '06 focus some parts I know of that are plastic are the rad support, front & rear bar, all of the lights, cam cover, inlet manifold

Didn't Ford win awards for innovative use of plastic in the XD Falcon?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by boris

Has anyone heard of e2 this is a web site and tv series that talks about green technology. One particular episode talks about transport technologies, and they speak of a organization ( which i think was apart of a university) that came up with a way to use cheap carbon fibre to make car bodies. These vehicles out performed steel based cars in crash test. The weight was 40% of a steel car body and was 60% of the cost to manufacture. Why don't car companies use carbon fibre then? Because there is a whole industry surrounding the use of steel in vehicle manufacture suppliers etc. who are making money and employ people, this is not a conspiracy theory it is fact. Carbon fibre would require vehicle manufactures throwing out all the design research etc in solved in steel body construction, there is just too much money invested in the use of steel in vehicles. But imagine a Falcon weighing 800-1000kg at 60% of the cost, the technology is there we just won't see it until some one takes the risk.

60% of the cost

Carbon fibre is extremely expensive and time consuming to make, it would be damn hard for manufacturers to build it in large quantities and it takes so long to do. Thats where steel is easy, takes a couple of seconds to punch out a panel, carbonfibre would take days.

People like Deakin Uni's research people are trying to find ways to make carbon fibre quick and easy to make. Only then will it replace steel in a standard car, not a high end sportcar that sells for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

It will still be a long while before we see it trickle down to cheap cars built in mass numbers.