When is it too much?

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by chevypower

All the Chrysler vehicles with the 5.7 Hemi V8 woke up big time when they changed them from the 5 and 6 speeds to the ZF 8 speed. It made a night and day difference. I don't know why people think that 6 gears are the ultimate in technology. I have 1037Nm of torque and a nice 6 speed Allison automatic. I would love more gears, especially for towing heavy loads. More gears will keep the rpm in the sweet spot, where you want it. If a 10 speed would slow it down, then the ratios and the programming would not be where they should be. Why would they do that? It's going to be an improvement. I can't wait for Ford and GM to get their 10 speeds.
Other examples where we have previously heard we are at the pinnacle of technology:
1. You will never need more than 2GB of hard drive space.
2. Your eyes cannot detect resolution greater than 1080p.
3. Why would anyone need 215Kw in an HSV?

Maybe it was the ZF that woke it up?
The ability to lock up in all gears makes them a better unit to start with.


I have to use manual mode in my car around town because it wants to use all 6 gears, I constantly find the engine lugging at 1000rpm if I use adaptive mode. I take off in 2nd because 1st is too short.

There is a lot more to gearing than the number of them. Having 1073nm of torque and then 6 speeds not being enough to keep it in it's powerband reeks of a truly bad engine design as far as I'm concerned.
I have in theory 24 speeds in my truck which is capable of pulling 300 tonne.
It has an Allison 6 speed main box and a 4 speed joey. Never once have I used the joey.

I do concede I can see how 8 could be useful in a big heavy car like a Jeep but 10 speeds in a light Mustang?? 8 gears in my XR8 would be beyond painful.
We have had 4wd for years with 5 speed main boxes and then a low range so a lot of gears isn't new, putting them into cars that don't require it is.

I don't have an issue with vehicles that can in fact use them, it's the pointless use that bothers me. If/when these things break they will cost more to repair than some new cars are to buy outright.

[bernbo]

The more gears that are added the closer it becomes a cvt, as the gaps will become too small to feel. Looking at costs the cvt would be cheaper to make and fix but would be very boring.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

I actually didnt mind the 5 speed in the SRT you could really feel the gear changes, which made it feel faster (although I realise its not)
But putting the 8 speed in the diesel was awesome, more gears are suited to small power band diesels.

Reminded me of a guy I work with. He has a 6 speed Mondeo automatic and hates it because "it's al;ways changing gears and it never knows what gear to be in"
Few seconds later he says he is looking at trading it in for a Grand Cherokee, which is an 8 speed auto.
Not sure his logic behind that if his main gripe with the Mondeo is too many gear changes.

[DFB FGXR6]

And for those that think a 10 speed Ford or GM is a step to far, Honda are supposed to be working on a 11 speed TRIPPLE clutch auto.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/473221/h...ission-report/

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

There is a lot more to gearing than the number of them. Having 1073nm of torque and then 6 speeds not being enough to keep it in it's powerband reeks of a truly bad engine design as far as I'm concerned.
I have in theory 24 speeds in my truck which is capable of pulling 300 tonne.
It has an Allison 6 speed main box and a 4 speed joey. Never once have I used the joey.

I do concede I can see how 8 could be useful in a big heavy car like a Jeep but 10 speeds in a light Mustang?? 8 gears in my XR8 would be beyond painful.
We have had 4wd for years with 5 speed main boxes and then a low range so a lot of gears isn't new, putting them into cars that don't require it is.

Haha no my Duramax has an awesome power band, I just said more gears would improve it. I didn't say it was bad. Peak torque at 1,600 rpm, peak power at 3,000 rpm. 0-100 in 7 seconds empty. They win all the towing tests. I was pulling a trailer up a hill and wanted to overtake a slow car in a short distance. Starting at the slow speed. That's where I noticed more gears would make it even better because it wanted to wind up from a lower rpm than where the peak horsepower was. Of course, being a diesel it has to shift up at 3,000rpm too.

I think you will see the value of a 10 speed in a Mustang when they change gears more like a Formula 1 car, though I think paddle shifters should be stationary, not move with the steering wheel if the steering box is designed for shuffling the wheel (rather than fixed hands), lock-to-lock. Of course there are many inherent differences with an F1 gearbox, but Incan guarantee the ZF-6 is not the pinnacle in performance. What I want to know is how many gears would F1 cars have if there were no regulation regarding the number of gears. But you never see them have fewer than the maximum.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Ben73

Reminded me of a guy I work with. He has a 6 speed Mondeo automatic and hates it because "it's al;ways changing gears and it never knows what gear to be in"
Few seconds later he says he is looking at trading it in for a Grand Cherokee, which is an 8 speed auto.
Not sure his logic behind that if his main gripe with the Mondeo is too many gear changes.

Chalk & Cheese.
Smaller petrol engine lighter car will leap around gears in a confused state. IMO CVT in this sort of car is a vast improvement less confused.

8 speed ZF in the JGC doesn't do this with the V8 & Diesel I've driven, its a very nice response. but these engines have lots of torque.
note I haven't driven the V6 Petrol

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

And for those that think a 10 speed Ford or GM is a step to far, Honda are supposed to be working on a 11 speed TRIPPLE clutch auto.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/473221/h...ission-report/

This has gone on long enough.

Why not just throw a CVT in it and call it a day. What benefit does 9+ gears have that CVT doesn't. Or is it just a numbers competition to see who can make the most gears.


Manual's need to up their game. I hear that the new Ranger will have a new manual with heaps of gears.

Here's a leaked photo.

[chevypower]

Because CVTs suck. I hate the 'slipping clutch' feeling. Plus nobody seems to have mastered a durable CVT for heavy duty, high torque applications. Pulleys and a belt or metal gears?

[Vesper Martini]

I know I know, but you may have to adjust it seems CVT is the future.

& they will enable them to handle the torque in the future

IMO all these 10 gear transmission are conditioning the public, 10 gears changing seamlessly will be pretty close to the feel of a CVT

[roddy1960]

G'day..Comparison between my AU four speed and My FG XR6 ZF...there is no comparison and understandably shouldn't be...The old AU has had one trannie oil change in 190,000 kms. early this year.To my amazement it got a clean bill of health. no real signs of wear , nothing to worry about on the magnets..filter fine , pan fine..I'm so used to it now after 13 years of ownership but this is what she does..1-2 slight feel of change at normal acceleration , 2-3 the same thing..3-4 the only way you can know is the rev counter dropping back below 2000 rpm...down shifts I am buggered if I can really pick the changes..Hard acceleration 1-2 is slightly lumpier if that makes any sense but 2-3 and 3-4 are much the same as normal day to day ..The only clunk comes in economy mode when it's down shifting 3-2 in a tight bend or steep uphill at about 60 kmh..if a bit faster it's fine though..Been like that the whole time I've owned her..The FG ZF is a totally different beast..Took me a while to grasp the super quick 1-2-3 up shifts but there is no really noticeable sensation of change , only engine note...4 to 6 is rev counter only noticeable really..Down shift surprised me in the lower gears initially..You can really feel them 3 to 1..kind of like brake assist to be honest..Apparently this is how it is and now I'm used to it , I really like it..In sports shift it's bloody fun..really is .. I had a BA with 4 speed sports shift and hardly ever used it..no real point..but the ZF is a totally different kettle of fish..no wonder people like it..The 4 speed suits the AU pretty nice but the ZF 6 speed really makes the FG XR6 ESPECIALLY for the N/A 4 litre Barra like mine..Love it..Cheers Rod...

[Vesper Martini]

Again very hard to read Mate with all the ...'s
So not really getting your point.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Again very hard to read Mate with all the ...'s
So not really getting your point.

You gotta turn on the translate function from Tassie to English.

[Mercury Bullet]

Well I enjoy reading Roddy's enthusiasm for all things Falcon.

I didn't pass English classes. So I won't comment.

[FPV6]

I'll translate Roddy for you lot

AU no big deal
FG amazing

that's all you need to know

Roddy should see the ZF with a bit of herb

[Patty]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

I know I know, but you may have to adjust it seems CVT is the future.

& they will enable them to handle the torque in the future

IMO all these 10 gear transmission are conditioning the public, 10 gears changing seamlessly will be pretty close to the feel of a CVT

Geez I hope this is not true. I've driven two cvt's in my lifetime and that was enough for me. They might be efficient, but for people who actually enjoy driving they are absolute crap. Makes the car feel lifeless.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Patty

Geez I hope this is not true. I've driven two cvt's in my lifetime and that was enough for me. They might be efficient, but for people who actually enjoy driving they are absolute crap. Makes the car feel lifeless.

No it's not true, it will feel like a regular automatic but with more shift points, and less of a drop or increase in rpms between each shift. It will be more responsive with partial throttle input.