Not turning over - 2.5V6

Skellibert · 03-05-2019, 10:44 PM

G'day folks.
As you may know (or may not!) I have a 2000 Mondeo ST24.
Several weeks back I drove into our driveway with absolutely no problem nor any indication of anything amiss.

When I got into it the next day, the starter would click (solenoid throwing OK) but would not spin.

When I looked under the bonnet, the main starter cable was shorting on the battery bracket, and had burned some of the plastic insulation from that cable. The Cable itself appears entirely intact, and I taped it with electrical tape to make sure it was not shorting. The plan was to get it going and buy a replacement cable.
But it won't turn over at all.
After fluffing around with various bits and pieces, removing the starter, and finally replacing the starter, I am getting the same thing.
Solenoid throws, but no spinning. However, the new starter definitely has more grunt behind it. It feels like it is trying to spin.
Anyway, I can't seem to get the motor to turn over on the starter, and I am beginning to think that it is a mechanical issue - some sort of seizing of the engine itself.
Today I pulled the three plugs from the front bank, jacked up the driver's wheel, and tried to roll the motor from the tyre - could not get it to turn.
Is it reasonable that there would be enough compression from the back three cylinders to make turning the motor that way difficult?

Now I am at the limit of my knowledge, and so I am asking here - what is the next thing to check on the little V6 to see if the motor is broken internally? (Without pulling it apart totally!)

Remember that it drove into the driveway without any issues at all - this developed overnight.
And the coolant is clean, and the oil is clean, no indications of a leak from one to the other. (I wondered if it was hydro'd from a cylinder leak - not the front three at least!)

I haven't pulled the rear three plugs because the coil etc is bolted over the top of it, and up against the firewall. But the front three are all dry and clean - I don't have a scope, but I could see inside with a torch (just). And the plugs that came out are old, but clean and dry.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

rondeo · 04-05-2019, 07:29 AM

Fusible link?

11ford11 · 04-05-2019, 09:53 AM

Are you able to turn engine by hand it may have filled cylinder with fuel due to a leaking injector -is coolant level ok
Possible faulty earth from cable shorting put a jumper lead from a good earth on block to battery negative

Skellibert · 04-05-2019, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 11ford11

Are you able to turn engine by hand it may have filled cylinder with fuel due to a leaking injector -is coolant level ok
Possible faulty earth from cable shorting put a jumper lead from a good earth on block to battery negative

Due to a busy schedule, the car sat for a few weeks before anything was done. I assume any fuel would have leaked past the rings over that time. But the oil on the dipstick shows clean and smooth. It was changed two weeks and less than 500km before it stopped. But as I mentioned, I haven't pulled the plugs on the back bank, so......
I haven't tried to run a cable to the starter - I don't know why I didn't think of that.....
I have only tried to turn the motor via the driver's side wheel. I was going to try it from the crank, but you have to remove the driver's side wheel to get to it and I have lost the security key for the lug nut....... I obviously put it somewhere safe.........
Didn't think about a fusible link - any idea where I would look for it?
Thanks for the suggestions.

rondeo · 04-05-2019, 03:32 PM

"Didn't think about a fusible link - any idea where I would look for it?"
I don't know about yours,
on my MC it's where the starter cable connects to the battery terminal.
Check with multimeter I'd suggest.
Battery voltage OK?

Simple things first.

Skellibert · 04-05-2019, 03:50 PM

Yep, battery is fully charged. Had it on charge and it is holding good. Back on the charger after each new attempt to start.
I will have a look tomorrow. Thanks.

Citroënbender · 04-05-2019, 08:01 PM

Could your pinion be jammed against the ring gear?

When trying to do a manual rotation via the wheel - assuming one driven wheel is "chocked" firmly onto the ground, three points - firstly you will need to rotate the wheel backwards if it has an open diff, secondly put it in third gear as the ratios are inverted, finally make ABSOLUTELY SURE it will not suddenly kick into life!

cobrin · 07-05-2019, 10:44 AM

If the Fusible link is okay look into these:

Find the starter relay (usually in the cabin near the kick panel fuses) and swap it for another in the system to test the function, if that's working okay...

then

Remove the starter motor. It's all of what two bolts and two cable/connections. Then bench test it. If that works as expected...

Then that leaves the security system and starter system controls.

Skellibert · 07-05-2019, 11:57 AM

The starter has been removed, tested weak, replaced with a brand new one. It is definitely more willing but the motor still won't turn over.
I have come to the conclusion that it is locked seized in some way. No matter what we try, we cannot get the motor to move at all.
So I will now proceed to strip it down until I know what the problem is.
First thing will be to pull the rear bank of plugs and have a look into those cylinders.
If all appears good then remove the intake system and see if anything is obvious, then I will drop the sump and see if I can see anything in the bottom end......
Who knows.......
Frustrating thing is that it drove into the driveway will no issue and the next morning it was stuffed.
The thing only cost me $500 so it will be hard to justify throwing loads of cash at it now.
It was supposed to be a cheap runabout, not a long term project.
Don't ever let me be involved in buying a car for you...... anyone......

11ford11 · 07-05-2019, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skellibert

The starter has been removed, tested weak, replaced with a brand new one. It is definitely more willing but the motor still won't turn over.
I have come to the conclusion that it is locked seized in some way. No matter what we try, we cannot get the motor to move at all.
So I will now proceed to strip it down until I know what the problem is.
First thing will be to pull the rear bank of plugs and have a look into those cylinders.
If all appears good then remove the intake system and see if anything is obvious, then I will drop the sump and see if I can see anything in the bottom end......
Who knows.......
Frustrating thing is that it drove into the driveway will no issue and the next morning it was stuffed.
The thing only cost me $500 so it will be hard to justify throwing loads of cash at it now.
It was supposed to be a cheap runabout, not a long term project.
Don't ever let me be involved in buying a car for you...... anyone......

Try cranking when you have rear plugs out
Check for the cost of a second hand motor before you spend to much repairing
What voltage do you have when you crank should have at least 9.5 to 10.5 v
Is it possible that cam chain has jumped or broken jamming crank or valves on pistons

Skellibert · 07-05-2019, 01:53 PM

My dad retired after years in the army and after doing electronics - he checked all the electrickery for me and said it all seems ok there.
Yep, my first step is to pull the rear plugs and have a look. Then I will take the huge intake off the top and see what is underneath and what I can see from there. Rocker covers and sump will happen after that, and if I still haven't found the problem.......
There are motors available, but not cheap ($1600 at a first look) but it is also not worth just getting a new motor without looking first. Costs me nothing but time to pull it apart. Not sure I can get it back together by myself but it is not working now, so I don't have much to lose....

Citroënbender · 07-05-2019, 02:27 PM

I’d be wondering if it’s hydralocked at the moment. A slight gasket failure may have reached tipping point. Certainly eviction of the rear bank plugs will offer clarity there.

As a side note, it’s generally not a good idea to wind chain timed engines backwards. Not suggesting you’ve done this, but wouldn’t want you to add grief.

Skellibert · 07-05-2019, 02:39 PM

Thanks to everyone for the help.
I will try to remember to post when I have found out something more, but that is not going to be in the next week or so - just too busy.
I really hope it can be fixed without huge cost, because unfortunately huge cost is not happening.
And since it is a bit rare, I would hate to see it end in scrap.
But I need a car that works, not a project.