A simple question - Page 2

red_hotxr6 · 30-07-2006, 01:33 PM

Ok so there are issues that predate this issue right now.However, these two countries came to an agreement in 2006, and hezbollah has now broken the agreement like a thief in the night and on top of that they prove themselves as cowards hiding behind innocent civilians.How do you sanction that.?

MITCHAY · 30-07-2006, 02:18 PM

If they really wanted to resolve this issue they would. Both of them think they are right and neither are prepared to decline. Pigheadedness at it's best.

red_hotxr6 · 30-07-2006, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

If they really wanted to resolve this issue they would. Both of them think they are right and neither are prepared to decline. Pigheadedness at it's best.

I fully agree with you there,However the U.N and NATO are the referees for us civilians and should be held as much accountable as the first person who started it.That is the whole reason we have rules and laws.

Outbackjack · 30-07-2006, 03:12 PM

The state of Israel was shoe horned into the middle east with the whole of the arab world objecting to it, the arabs of the world back then were taken for a ride by the Brits who promised them their own home land after world war 2. At the same time the Brits were negotiating with the french and others as to how they wrer going to divvy up the area after the war. The Jews of the day started a bombing campaign starting about 1944 and 1945 , they also went on a assaination spree of polititians of the day. They are today considered freedom fighters by the Israeli's and are revered in Israel. Now what you say about Islam is in part true. Most of radical Islam was born during the events after the 1948 birth of Islam. The Israeli freedom fighters expelled around 300,000 (this number is in dispute, but 300,000 is considered about correct) palestinians (by the way that term is a fairly new one). These people whose decendants now live in the OCCUPIED territories want to go back to their rightful lands. Their family histories go back to when jesus walked around these lands. The current ocupants are from Europe and other places and have NO family connection with the land.

Can't we understand why radical politics have got hold in the area. The Shiite muslims throught history have never mixed religion and politics. This started to change thru the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, back in 82? In fact Israel has invaded Lebanon serveral times and have been taken to task by the the useless UN over the slaughter of civilians. These invasions gave birth to Hezbola (SP?) Thes hezbols provided the much neglected south with hospitals, schools, water power, and SECURITY. Is was hezbola that was the reason Isreal left Lebanon in 2000. This time Israel is very reluctant to commit ground troops. The people of south Lebanom see hezbola as their only defence from the Israel's invasion.

I am not defending terrorism. I loath it. But even blind freddie would be able to see that if Israel actually obeyed the UN resolutions leveled against it the world would be a better place. It is also worth noting the bombings of innocent people that the Israeli freedom fighters committed leading up to 48. Whats the old saying, live by the sword, die by the sword.

And please don't anyone think that I am anti US. Nothing could be further from the truth. Without the US Israel would have dissapeared long ago. I wonder what would happen if all the people of the reigon were given a vote as weather to abolish Israel or not, called democracy I believe.

I find it amuzing that history that happened 1000 2000 years ago is the catalyst for the problems we are facing today.... Will we humans ever learn??

It is also very interesting to read some of the classified documents about the 67 war. We all know about the arab build up, but why was the build up happening? very interesting. And we all know who fired the first shot, dont we.

Cheers all.

Outbackjack · 30-07-2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red_hotxr6

Ok so there are issues that predate this issue right now.However, these two countries came to an agreement in 2006, and hezbollah has now broken the agreement like a thief in the night and on top of that they prove themselves as cowards hiding behind innocent civilians.How do you sanction that.?

Israel has ignored every UN resolution sice 1967, they have also not complied with all the agreements they have made in 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006. They started to build a wall instead. They use these "agreements" to stall for time.

Please read up on the true history, you wont get any of that on CNN, fox, or any American news outlet. Our own humle ABC is the closest thing to an un biased reporting service we get here on OZ.

Cheers.

MITCHAY · 30-07-2006, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

And please don't anyone think that I am anti US. Nothing could be further from the truth. Without the US Israel would have dissapeared long ago. I wonder what would happen if all the people of the reigon were given a vote as weather to abolish Israel or not, called democracy I believe.

I have been told that the US has a rather large Jewish population therefore that could only be good for elections.

FordFan86 · 30-07-2006, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

And please don't anyone think that I am anti US. Nothing could be further from the truth. Without the US Israel would have dissapeared long ago. I wonder what would happen if all the people of the reigon were given a vote as weather to abolish Israel or not, called democracy I believe.

UN Resolution 181:
The 33 countries that voted in favor of the partition, as set by UN resolution 181: Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Belarus, Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, South Africa, Ukraine, United States, USSR, Uruguay, Venezuela.

The 13 countries that voted against UN Resolution 181: Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.

The ten countries that abstained: Argentina, Chile, Republic of China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.

One state was absent: Thailand.
Pictorial representation:

Other ports of call in order to better understand the Israel/arab tentions:
The massacres at Sabra and Shatila. The massacre at Quan. The 6 day war and subsequent 1976 Arab/Israeli war.
http://www.indictsharon.net/case-frame.html
http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp

Palestine and the other Arab states continue to refuse to recognise the Zionist state of Israel. They want their land back, weather it be to the original borders set out by UN resolution 181 or for the complete destruction of the State. (the latter I'm sure would be more preffered). Israel did not one day just say "hey we've got this land, lets take gaza strip, west bank and golan heights while we're at it". They were threatened and have occupied this land in order to protect their major cities.

Right now they are not fighting a war against a conventional army, they are fighting against guerrillas and terrorists. Terrorists take the form of civilains, it becomes hard to discriminate between friend and foe. What's worse is the Hezbollah are shielding themselves by doing so. A clear breach of the rules of engagement. Israel is at a loss here if they are going to play by the rules.

Let's face it, if you're going to attack a country with one of the worlds best trained and armed militaries you are stupid and deserve what's coming to you.
It's good to see Israel not bowing to UN resolutions, how many other countries would have the balls to do that (US backing or not)? They are fighting for their survival, let them do it their way.

Allahu akbar.

red_hotxr6 · 30-07-2006, 04:21 PM

Ok now that the U.N have set a resolution, with a majority backing, why dont they follow it up.Like if you speed you dont get a warning then another and another etc, you get fined, keep it up and you will lose your license.Do something about it, back it up with the full confidence that the countries who voted for the resolution will back you up, 100%.

Outbackjack · 30-07-2006, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FordFan86

UN Resolution 181:
The 33 countries that voted in favor of the partition, as set by UN resolution 181: Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Belarus, Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, South Africa, Ukraine, United States, USSR, Uruguay, Venezuela.

The 13 countries that voted against UN Resolution 181: Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.

The ten countries that abstained: Argentina, Chile, Republic of China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.

One state was absent: Thailand.
Pictorial representation:

Other ports of call in order to better understand the Israel/arab tentions:
The massacres at Sabra and Shatila. The massacre at Quan. The 6 day war and subsequent 1976 Arab/Israeli war.
http://www.indictsharon.net/case-frame.html
http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp

Palestine and the other Arab states continue to refuse to recognise the Zionist state of Israel. They want their land back, weather it be to the original borders set out by UN resolution 181 or for the complete destruction of the State. (the latter I'm sure would be more preffered). Israel did not one day just say "hey we've got this land, lets take gaza strip, west bank and golan heights while we're at it". They were threatened and have occupied this land in order to protect their major cities.

Right now they are not fighting a war against a conventional army, they are fighting against guerrillas and terrorists. Terrorists take the form of civilains, it becomes hard to discriminate between friend and foe. What's worse is the Hezbollah are shielding themselves by doing so. A clear breach of the rules of engagement. Israel is at a loss here if they are going to play by the rules.

Let's face it, if you're going to attack a country with one of the worlds best trained and armed militaries you are stupid and deserve what's coming to you.
It's good to see Israel not bowing to UN resolutions, how many other countries would have the balls to do that (US backing or not)? They are fighting for their survival, let them do it their way.

Allahu akbar.

Gosh, how anyone can sit comfortable with what is going on right now is beyond me. Its a bit like David and Goliath, this time David is not jewish....

Notice that the people that were objecting were the poor sods that lost their territory.

Its a sad thing that the whole world will be dragged into this, one way or another. Personally I think that Israel should be left totally alone to fight their own battles. No super power ally. Then the whole region could sort itself out, once and for all.

red_hotxr6 · 30-07-2006, 04:39 PM

How can you leave Israel to sort this out by itself, when Hezbollah has moved into Lebanon and is holding a gun to its head.Then you have syria and Iran backing them, and god knows whoever else.You have the leader of a country,Iran, calling for the utter destruction of an entire country.I mean they are trying to do what Hitler tried to do. All these countries against Israel, do you think Israel would survive.The U.N needs to step in with the backing of the countries that voted for resolution 1559 and stop it now.

Outbackjack · 30-07-2006, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red_hotxr6

How can you leave Israel to sort this out by itself, when Hezbollah has moved into Lebanon and is holding a gun to its head.Then you have syria and Iran backing them, and god knows whoever else.You have the leader of a country,Iran, calling for the utter destruction of an entire country.I mean they are trying to do what Hitler tried to do. All these countries against Israel, do you think Israel would survive.The U.N needs to step in with the backing of the countries that voted for resolution 1559 and stop it now.

The last thing Israel wants is the UN in the area. They are not interested in what the UN has to say. It always makes me laugh when I hear the Israeli foreign minister get up there and bleat about Lebanon not obeying the UN resolution that syas they must control hezbola in the South, perhaps if Israel obeyed all the UN resolutions that have been directed towards them they might have some credibility in this area. The simple fact is that Israel were not welcome in the area since day 1. The state was forced apon the inhabitants of there area at huge cost to them. All the Palestinians want is their land back..... Not an unreasonable desire. If Israel obeyed the UN resolution that says they must with drawer to the 1967 border, there would be a huge step in the right direction.

The UN is useless unless ALL its resolutions are adheared to. Israel have a poor history in this respect.

No, I dont think Israel would survive in that scenario. But they will never have peace going down the road they are on. Nor do they derserve it.
Some statistics show that Israels biggest problems will come fron the ballot box in about 10 to 15 years. With Arab numbers growing at a much faster rate than Jews. That 10 or 15 years can't come soon enough, when the majority of the area get a fair hearing, Israel will face some very tough choices. But these will hopefully lead to a lasting peace.

Cheers all.

FordFan86 · 30-07-2006, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

No, I dont think Israel would survive in that scenario. But they will never have peace going down the road they are on. Nor do they derserve it.
Some statistics show that Israels biggest problems will come fron the ballot box in about 10 to 15 years. With Arab numbers growing at a much faster rate than Jews. That 10 or 15 years can't come soon enough, when the majority of the area get a fair hearing, Israel will face some very tough choices. But these will hopefully lead to a lasting peace.
Cheers all.

2 choices I see.
Another Holocaust
Another partioning of land for a Zionist state.
Both look very appealing...... (sarcasm people)

Outbackjack · 30-07-2006, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FordFan86

2 choices I see.
Another Holocaust
Another partioning of land for a Zionist state.
Both look very appealing...... (sarcasm people)

Nobody wants another holcaust, there is nowhere else on earth that the Jews want to live. It just so happens that the people that have lived there for thousands of years consider it to be theirs. Bring on the ballot box.

red_hotxr6 · 30-07-2006, 05:29 PM

I am quite sure that if that was the scenario,Syria and Iran would have gone into Israel all ready however thank God for the U.S.A, that,s all that,s holding them back i suppose.Actually you know if the U.S.A. wern,t there i wonder how many attrocities would be commited all over this planet,because no one else has the might or the money to do it.And you only have to look at how the russians went in Afghanistan, they ended up selling there boots for food, while beating a hasty retreat.

FordFan86 · 30-07-2006, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red_hotxr6

I am quite sure that if that was the scenario,Syria and Iran would have gone into Israel all ready however thank God for the U.S.A, that,s all that,s holding them back i suppose.Actually you know if the U.S.A. wern,t there i wonder how many attrocities would be commited all over this planet,because no one else has the might or the money to do it.And you only have to look at how the russians went in Afghanistan, they ended up selling there boots for food, while beating a hasty retreat.

Read upon the 6 day war. Israel kicked some serious ****. Without US aid (well, military equipment if you want to count that)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Nobody wants another holcaust, there is nowhere else on earth that the Jews want to live. It just so happens that the people that have lived there for thousands of years consider it to be theirs. Bring on the ballot box.

Which ballot box? The one between the Jews in Israel and the Palestinians.
The countries currently sitting on the UN council? The Jews and the arabs? There is no "fair" way to go about it. The funny thing is the Bible claims that it is their land, dating back well before the times of Islam.
The even funnier thing is that Islam, Ba'hai, Buddhism, Judaism and most other religous sects are an offshoot of Christianity. All formed at different times under different prophets or messengers of the one true God. Why is it then, that one religion call for the complete destruction of another???

Outbackjack · 30-07-2006, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red_hotxr6

I am quite sure that if that was the scenario,Syria and Iran would have gone into Israel all ready however thank God for the U.S.A, that,s all that,s holding them back i suppose.Actually you know if the U.S.A. wern,t there i wonder how many attrocities would be commited all over this planet,because no one else has the might or the money to do it.And you only have to look at how the russians went in Afghanistan, they ended up selling there boots for food, while beating a hasty retreat.

You cover some very valid tropics here, yes Israel are there but for the grace of America. Israel is a false nation. Like I said, the people that actually have to live there do not want the Jewish state there. If someone kicked you off your land and told you to go live in a refugee camp, would probably be a bit narky. And you would probably resent the power that gives the bully the guts to do it. Atrocities come in many forms. Even the USA cant stop all of them ever happening. Israel are no stranger to bidding a hastie retreat with a bloody nose either. South Lebanon in 2000.

I truly wonder is what the REAL reason Israel is destroying Lebanon? I have heard the propaganda.......

FordFan86 · 30-07-2006, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Israel are no stranger to bidding a hastie retreat with a bloody nose either. South Lebanon in 2000.

Hasty retreat? After ~20 years occupation? Hardly.

Outbackjack · 30-07-2006, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FordFan86

Which ballot box? The one between the Jews in Israel and the Palestinians.
The countries currently sitting on the UN council? The Jews and the arabs? There is no "fair" way to go about it.

The ballot box that I am referring to will be the Israel general elections. As I said the Arab population is growing faster than the jewish population. Unless Israel goes back to the days when Arabs were not allowed to vote, there could be some changes to the lay of the land. This can only be a good thing for the whole of the world.

Outbackjack · 30-07-2006, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FordFan86

Hasty retreat? After ~20 years occupation? Hardly.

Yes, 20 years of ocupation, they could no longer sustain the casualities, yes they got a bloody nose!!!!

FordFan86 · 30-07-2006, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

The ballot box that I am referring to will be the Israel general elections. As I said the Arab population is growing faster than the jewish population. Unless Israel goes back to the days when Arabs were not allowed to vote, there could be some changes to the lay of the land. This can only be a good thing for the whole of the world.

Would it not then come down to how many Arab muslims are living in Israel and eligible to vote? I'd dare say no matter what the growth rates are for each race there will always be more Jews in Israel than Arabs. Your arguement is flawed.

Sourbastard · 30-07-2006, 05:47 PM

As to the current military capability of Israel, if open war were declared between the middle east and Israel, the Middle East would be a parking lot inside of a year. They have proven it time and again, their Tanks are some of the best made, especially their Merkava series, their men are well trained and highly disciplined, I know many of them.

As to the conflict itself, the region has been in conflict since 1000 BCE when King David defeated the Jebusites in Jerusalem and stripped power from the 12 tribes. The area has always been rife with conflict both political and military. Everyone has had a go. The Persians. The Macedonians under Alexander. The Romans. The Byzantines. The Muslims. The Crusaders. The Mameluks. The Ottoman Turks. The British under mandate. Everyones had a go at some point or another for this entire region. Anyone can sit and argue about who owns what part to what extent until the cows come home. The key here is, many have ancient historical claim, especially the muslims and the Israelis.

The reasons behind invasion and occupation by so many parties varies. Each party has had their own reasons ranging from religion, to the quality of farmland, to "It was in the way". They all have their roots in the aquisition of power and control.

The current conflict isnt new. Its just an action replay of thousands of years of history. There will be another peace treaty. There will be another time when that treaty will be broken, and the process will start again with conflict. People of that region have very strong senses and knowledge of history. Many individuals will break or stretch the peace based on what was done in year XXXX and use it to justify action tomorrow.

Sitting here and trying to second guess who is justified and who is righteous is a waste of time. Period. The area will always be contested. The area will always be under the influence of outside factors in the form of money, support, weapons and training, political support and varying other forms of aid. Theres simply too much history, too much past conflict, too much perceived justification for both sides to wage war, occupy land, commit terrorist acts, cook kebabs and other various regional historical pass times.

So in closing, stop wasting bandwidth.

FordFan86 · 30-07-2006, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Yes, 20 years of ocupation, they could no longer sustain the casualities, yes they got a bloody nose!!!!

What did Lebanon get then? a 20 year coma?

Outbackjack · 30-07-2006, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourbastard

As to the current military capability of Israel, if open war were declared between the middle east and Israel, the Middle East would be a parking lot inside of a year. They have proven it time and again, their Tanks are some of the best made, especially their Merkava series, their men are well trained and highly disciplined, I know many of them.

As to the conflict itself, the region has been in conflict since 1000 BCE when King David defeated the Jebusites in Jerusalem and stripped power from the 12 tribes. The area has always been rife with conflict both political and military. Everyone has had a go. The Persians. The Macedonians under Alexander. The Romans. The Byzantines. The Muslims. The Crusaders. The Mameluks. The Ottoman Turks. The British under mandate. Everyones had a go at some point or another for this entire region. Anyone can sit and argue about who owns what part to what extent until the cows come home. The key here is, many have ancient historical claim, especially the muslims and the Israelis.

The reasons behind invasion and occupation by so many parties varies. Each party has had their own reasons ranging from religion, to the quality of farmland, to "It was in the way". They all have their roots in the aquisition of power and control.

The current conflict isnt new. Its just an action replay of thousands of years of history. There will be another peace treaty. There will be another time when that treaty will be broken, and the process will start again with conflict. People of that region have very strong senses and knowledge of history. Many individuals will break or stretch the peace based on what was done in year XXXX and use it to justify action tomorrow.

Sitting here and trying to second guess who is justified and who is righteous is a waste of time. Period. The area will always be contested. The area will always be under the influence of outside factors in the form of money, support, weapons and training, political support and varying other forms of aid. Theres simply too much history, too much past conflict, too much perceived justification for both sides to wage war, occupy land, commit terrorist acts, cook kebabs and other various regional historical pass times.

So in closing, stop wasting bandwidth.

Well written, a breif outline of history. What makes this all very relevant to us "down here" is that the conflict will be emulated in this great garden called Australia. We have imported both sides of the urguement into Australia. This will eventually have a domestic effect. Bandwidth is cheap.

Outbackjack · 30-07-2006, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FordFan86

What did Lebanon get then? a 20 year coma?

Please explain??????

FordFan86 · 30-07-2006, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Please explain??????

I shouldn't have to.
But.
20 years occupation and only a "bloody nose" what sort of analogy for physical injury would you prescribe to Lebanon for being owned for 20 years? A 20 year coma.

Sourbastard · 30-07-2006, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Well written, a breif outline of history. What makes this all very relevant to us "down here" is that the conflict will be emulated in this great garden called Australia. We have imported both sides of the urguement into Australia. This will eventually have a domestic effect. Bandwidth is cheap.

Really? How many synagogues and mosques are there in alice springs?

Outbackjack · 30-07-2006, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Really? How many synagogues and mosques are there in alice springs?

None, thats part of the reason I choose to live here.

Outbackjack · 30-07-2006, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FordFan86

I shouldn't have to.
But.
20 years occupation and only a "bloody nose" what sort of analogy for physical injury would you prescribe to Lebanon for being owned for 20 years? A 20 year coma.

Interesting. Now please answer a simple question. Were the Hezbolla (SP?) fighters that eventually forced Israel to withdraw terrorists?? Or were they fighting to get their land back, freedom fighters???

FordFan86 · 30-07-2006, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Interesting. Now please answer a simple question. Were the Hezbolla (SP?) fighters that eventually forced Israel to withdraw terrorists?? Or were they fighting to get their land back, freedom fighters???

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
So, in answer to your question they are one in the same.
Shove that in your pipe and smoke it.
Here's one for you.
The IDF are a recognised military, yet they are being accused of terrorism. The Hezbolls are civilians, also being accused of terrorism. Which ones are the true terrorists??

Sourbastard · 30-07-2006, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

None, thats part of the reason I choose to live here.

Well theres racial tolerance for you. But what would I know, I'm a dirty wog. My parents received the same sort of half retarded judgement from people like yourself, fueled by ignorance and fear, which I have no doubt you own in abundance. Just because you use big words, does not make you an intellectual.

True wisdom comes from inclusion. Not exclusion.

Final word.