Bathurst, Is It Still The Race?????

**DJR-351** · 13-07-2008, 09:55 PM

Im with this bloke, stick the so called V8s and the HOLDEN v FORD crap, the best racing i ever seen was when you had them all on the mountain.

What we see today is not what the original race was about, old jo-blo used to be able to coble together a car and drive it to the track and race, sorry, the name "Great Race" has lost it for me.

It used to be about what was on the road that day, and Holden and Ford fans went with it, but there was more to it than that, you had them all there for every aussie and their budget, and it was great to see someone racing a Fiat around the same as my family owned.

Naaaaa!!! watching two makes racing cars that do not represent what is in the showroom does not do it for me anymore and as far as i am concerned you cannot compare the TWO races.

The only way is muliti manufactor and so you and me can afford to do it,

That was the "Great Aussie motor race"

This is what some old dude sent to the "V8s" Blog.

I FOR ONE HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THE TWO MANUFACTURER CRAP!!!!!!!! I HAVE BEEN WATCHING SINCE 1969 AND SINCE WATCHING FOLLOW THE LEADER FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS OR SO YOU CAN PUT IT WHERE THE SUN DON'T SHINE. GOOD OLD AUSSIES USED TO BUY A CAR ON THE OUTCOME OF THESE RACES BUT WHAT YOU SEE NOW IS NOT A REPRESENTATION OF WHATS BEEN DRIVEN TODAY, YOU USED TO SEE THE CAR ON RACE DAY, AND GO BUY THE SAME ON MONDAY........
THE GREAT AUSSIE RACE........ YOUR A JOKE.

BRING BACK MULTI MANUFACTURE RACING SEDANS, AT LEAST ITS HONEST RACING!!!!!!
WHO SELLS THE MOST CARS IN AUST AT THE MOMENT????

HAVE A NICE DAY
XA FALCON COUPE + LANDCRUISER OWNER

Brute6 · 13-07-2008, 10:04 PM

Well off you go and watch your "Production Car Racing"......

Whats the point of saying "Who sells the most cars in Aust at the moment? I'll ask you this question......

Out of the current three Aussie Manufacturers, who sells the most to Australian people?
Ford would be the answer. Yes they race V8's and yes they race in the Production Car Championships..........

**Silver Ghia** · 13-07-2008, 10:08 PM

Yep, fully agree with you, XA351COUPE.

Wrote a post last week in the Pits section about the decline of V8 Supercars, see post #121 copied below:

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...57#post2220057

Quote:

Bathurst used to give me a real buzz, seeing and hearing those real V8 production cars going up mountain straight for the first time really got my blood rushing. And there was such a variety of cars, Allan Moffat punting his RX7 around at the top of the field, or the RX3's that got well into the top ten.

Now the V8's supercars have hijacked the race and I no longer get that buzz. With the 'safety' cars stuffing up the race everyso often to close up the field almost intentionally, and the over the top inconsistent penalties, it doesnt have that excitement any more, and its down to pure luck for the winner.

As for the races during the year, last weekend was an example where I only watched the last race and it was so ho-hum boring.

I vote to bring back proper production cars, not these cars that look like Fords and Holdens, but most stuff inside them identical. I can see why Ford have pulled the sponsorship on DJR and 888.

Ives · 13-07-2008, 10:10 PM

I say bring back the GT-R and reclaim the crown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brute6

Out of the current three Aussie Manufacturers, who sells the most to Australian people?
Ford would be the answer. ...

I thought Holden would be the answer.

GTP290 · 13-07-2008, 10:15 PM

I am a big fan of production car racing, but buggered if I know when its on, when its on TV, and if im lucky enought to tune in, chances are the car I want to see race hasnt entered in that round or worse still is running around last posistion because he blew a spark plug lead and hasnt got a spare to replace it!
If production car racing has any future in this country, its got to be televised consistantly, and cars have to race in each round consistantly, otherwise it will get to frustrating to watch and you will loose your audience in no time, which is more than likely the case at the moment.

gtxb67 · 13-07-2008, 10:17 PM

the current cars are just an evolution of the cars that raced in 1973. those cars were not standard - you could not buy one. they were closer for sure, but they were just the start of the cycle. series production finished in 1972
the mid 70's - mid 80's were not really racing. they were endurance events, where there was only 3 cars that may have lasted the distance while going quick enough to finish where it mattered. with the current cars, depending on the roll of the dice, any number of cars can win. the lesser budgeted teams can still finish 2nd and 3rd at least with the big budgeted teams behind them
a lot of people on this forum have suggested series production again - we had that at bathurst with the 12 hour. the top drivers, all types of vehicles and no one went. most want v8's, not group a, super tourers or any other form
currently, the racing while contrived may not be as good as times gone past in all areas, we do have it pretty good in some
i remember the days of the coupes most fondly. i do not know why though - there was normally only three coupes, getting their butts kick by a whole heap of toranas

Brute6 · 13-07-2008, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ives

I say bring back the GT-R and reclaim the crown.

I thought Holden would be the answer.

The last time I saw the sales, Ford actually did sell more to the Australian public. If anyone does have any current sales to verify (or dispute!!) it would be interesting. Late last year was when I saw the figures......

jaydee · 13-07-2008, 10:38 PM

You're a brave man XA351coupe, you're gonna get bagged something cruel here.

But I also agree with you.
I hardly watch the racing on the weekends. Once I used to arrange my day around it, made sure the lawn was mowed etc so the Mrs couldn't nag me, but now I just don't care.

Although, Bathurst is something special and I'll still watch it, but not for 8 hours straight like I used to, unless it's wet, then you have a race.

gtxb67 · 13-07-2008, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee

You're a brave man XA351coupe, you're gonna get bagged something cruel here.

i understand what you are both saying, my interest isn't what it used to be - but after watching bathurst for the last 32 years, i think it has something to do with natural boredom than the cars themselves. the current ones appeal to the young kids - in 30 years time they will be saying "it isn't as good as it was in my day". the 70's were the go from where i sit, but anyone that watched the first phillip island "great race" will say the 70's were not as good as the 60's. they would of course be both right and wrong

**DJR-351** · 13-07-2008, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brute6

Well off you go and watch your "Production Car Racing"......

Whats the point of saying "Who sells the most cars in Aust at the moment? I'll ask you this question......

Out of the current three Aussie Manufacturers, who sells the most to Australian people?
Ford would be the answer. Yes they race V8's and yes they race in the Production Car Championships..........

Of course there will always be people who miss the point totaly!!!!!!!

First let me point out that my two brothers and i are die hard Ford fanatics and always have been, any one wants to question that send contact details and we will discuss over a few beers.

I wont get into the debate of who sells the most cars in Australia at the moment other than to say it IS NOT FORD (they just pulled sponsership to most Ford V8 teams, INCLUDING DICK JOHNSON, cause times are tough.)

The point i was trying to make was the "GREAT RACE" was for all Australians and not just Ford and Holden fans, you had a better than even chance of seeing them all, Valiants, minis, bmws, cortinas, fiats, chevys, datsuns....etc etc, you stood a fair chance of seeing the family wagon racing around the track.

To call it the great race now as it always has been known is utter rubbish, what do you watch??? a freight train, as most comentators state. At least with the old style, mixed manufactors, the front runners had to deal with slower traffic making for more exciting racing instead of the "follow the leader" that we see now.

Sorry, but my personal opinion is the V8s in the present format has run its course and needs to be re-vamped, Holden and Ford need to start earning its money and that can only come from compeating with other makes of cars, on and of the race track.

If you base your car on who wins a race, would it not be better to go to races that represent all available makes as the "Great Race" used to be.

I dont know about the rest of yous, but i used to love watching a privateer holding out a big name Ford and Holden in his back-yard build pride and joy for a few laps, that was racing, that was the "GREAT RACE"............

NEWS FLASH: HOLDEN THINKING ABOUT PULLING BACK ON SPONSERSHIP OUTLAYS.............FORD BEAT THEM AGAIN

**DJR-351** · 13-07-2008, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ives

I say bring back the GT-R and reclaim the crown.

I thought Holden would be the answer.

Out of just Ford and Holden yer right..........

Muscle_Inc · 13-07-2008, 11:37 PM

Well for us young fans who werent around that particular era to experience the battles between david vs goliath, man vs machine, you could say im pleased that ford and holden are reviving these famous badges despite its not a true representation to what they are on the road to how there portrayed on the track and maybe how they slightly misinterpreted but its the closest i could hopefully own without forking out 6 digits.

As for bathurst it cant be compared like the good old days, nowadays they seem more tamed, orchestrated with a very controlled environment which i can understand to a certain extent though maybe on the flipside of the coin its still could to see the rivalry between the 2 manufacturers because its good to kick back on sundays and watch the v8's (when i get the chance) which i realise how lucky and proud i am to be driving a v8 even if i am slightly underpowered lol.

GTENVY · 14-07-2008, 12:24 AM

I think you'll find the major problem you'll find is the rules to make the racing fair and competitive. Having 4,6 and 8 cylinder engine in varying cars sizes would cause nightmares let alone arguements on what modifications are allowable for different cars. There a different arguements/reasons for why the ATCC evolved into V8 supercars but the ford serria and nissan skyline didn't help.

**DJR-351** · 14-07-2008, 12:25 AM

i remember the days of the coupes most fondly. i do not know why though - there was normally only three coupes, getting their butts kick by a whole heap of toranas
__________________
You are so right, and thank you for reinforcing my point, even though i do not think you meant to.

The Toranas did kick the butts of the Coupes, more often than not, but it gave joe public a choice at the track, and that is what did it for you.

As far as the cars on the track in 1973, well my old man and his brother threw the XA GS (and a few spare tyres and plugs) on the trailer, drove from Adelaide and raced at Bathurst as a privateer, can you do this today and get on TV and the history books. Look at the history, privateers where still entering 10 years after this. Not now.............

I Recognise your statement as to the evolution of the cars but this has nothing whatsoever to do with the race and its meaning, Monaco is still Monaco, that is the same as saying you will never watch another Ferrari in a race unless it is in Formula 1, and formula one is still open to all makes, the Isle of Man TT (the greatest motorcycle race in the world in my opinion) is still open to all makes of motorcycles regardless of evolution, and you can still buy basically the same bike of the show room floor, and these are still world renown race events that have not changed their criteria, they are still known for what they origanaly started as.

How many times has Bathurst changed its tune............

Fair enough if the car evolves into somthing else then create a catagory for it but dont hijack another, which has happend here, where else in the world could you compeat with the "V8s, nowhere its be tried, the class is isolated, and isolated from the public.........

**DJR-351** · 14-07-2008, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTENVY

I think you'll find the major problem you'll find is the rules to make the racing fair and competitive. Having 4,6 and 8 cylinder engine in varying cars sizes would cause nightmares let alone arguements on what modifications are allowable for different cars. There a different arguements/reasons for why the ATCC evolved into V8 supercars but the ford serria and nissan skyline didn't help.

It worked well for a long time before i got interested........

The problem was the powers that be thought it was not good for the Aussie cars to be beaten by overseas stuff.......Serrias,Nissans and who can forget the Walkinshaw Jags, they where world beaters. No, if we cant beat em....BAN EM..... :evil3:

T-Pak Addict · 14-07-2008, 12:53 AM

I agree I do miss the old days, when cars were bought on the few days before the race and run in on the way to Bathurst..... Great days they were indeed. Price catergories not how big the donk was.... Brilliant stuff.

Prob was the supercar scare... but cars we buy now can go faster and handle better.

Bring it back.... then we will see some racing

gtxb67 · 14-07-2008, 08:18 AM

[QUOTE/]You are so right, and thank you for reinforcing my point, even though i do not think you meant to. [/QUOTE]
i only referred to two manufacturers - the same amount as we have now
i understand your point and agree with you, but i think it has more to do with people getting older and harping about the good old days. we used to roll our eyes when our parents or grand parents told us about them, but now do the same thing. when we first watch something, it is new and fresh, as time goes on it becomes stale and we remember the 10 minutes of highlights of days gone and pretend the whole race was like that
the racing was no where near as good. in 1963 jane/firth led for all but 7 laps. in 1971 the race was over half way up mountain straight on the first lap. in 1975 and 1976 there was 3 fords in the outright class - not much diversity. in 1978-79 only one car was ever going to win. 1982-84 that same car or it stable mate was the only car that could win. they had to bring in group a because trying to keep mazda's, nissan's, ford's, holden's, bmw's etc all competitive was impossible. it doesn't matter how many manufacturers you have, or how you get to the track - the quality of the racing counts. group a was an international formula which made our local cars a waste of time, so the rules needed to be changed.

the old days were good, these ones are good too - just different
i would rather see 20 fords than 3 - most others would rather see cars racing at the end, than the one car out on its own with no hope of losing to the walking wounded trundling around trying to make the distance

Wally · 14-07-2008, 08:33 AM

There should be two races run on consequative weekends: one for the supercar bods and the other for the drive on Sunday, sell on Monday brigade (no engine telemetry, only car cam for the television audience)

4Vman · 14-07-2008, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

There should be two races run on consequative weekends: one for the supercar bods and the other for the drive on Sunday, sell on Monday brigade (no engine telemetry, only car cam for the television audience)

You'd have to attend the prody race in person because nobody would bother televising it....
Besides.. the Bathurst 12hr already caters to that catagory, if people are so into prody racing why don't they support the catagory because it already exists..

dave289 · 14-07-2008, 09:01 AM

I definately dont enjoy bathurst like I used to,where as someone mentioned you would watch it all day.Im 38 now but i remember watching falcons and toranas and the likes back in the late 70's when i was a kid,the old man was not as big as a car fanatic that i am but he would still watch it all day back then.I think the big appeal back then is you could buy these production cars off the showroom floor ,so you could see your own car or the family variant race out on the track.the cars these days are so far from the production models that really they dont compare at all except for shape.

What would it take to bring a production car race like this to life.Im sure if you get a couple of million in prize money.lets say a million for first ,$500,000 for second $125,00 for third ect.there should be no shortage of sponsors that would get on board if a major tv channel like 7,9 or 10 would take it on.there would be plenty of people out there willing to race their cars no doubt,its not like its going to cost as much as it would to run a supercar,infact it should be only a fraction of the cost and keep the modifictions to a minimum eg roll cage ,tyres and maybe and exhaust,camera and two way radio gear and be able to strip out any unwanted seats.Is this a posibility or am i just dreaming,the idea of it was good anyway.bring back the good old race I say.

SVTVNM · 14-07-2008, 09:20 AM

This is the first year I have not been that into the V8's, I think another 1-2 manufacturers should be invloved. Would bring alot more intrest from alot more people also. I know this may not be ideal for alot of current spectators but it will keep ythe sport going. For example now that Toyota is in NASCAR who's engines do they use, surely they do not use Lexus V8's.

FTe342 · 14-07-2008, 09:33 AM

The days of stock Phase 3's racing against stock Hillman Imps are gone due to the speed differential and therefore the safety concerns. I can remember Moffat complaining about the danger & safety aspects of this at the time. He also didn't like building up a lead only to be held up by a slower car and then being caught again by the main opposition

Ok they only had very basic safety devices in terms of seat belts and half roll cages which could be improved upon. But the chance of accidents is greatly increased and we have seen deaths recently with all the current safety gear when the cars are travelling at simliar speed.

Whilst I would love the old concept to be revived (for the main race) I am only pointing out the whys and wherefores

gtxb67 · 14-07-2008, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVTVNM

This is the first year I have not been that into the V8's, I think another 1-2 manufacturers should be invloved. Would bring alot more intrest from alot more people also.

this does sound great in theory, but for us ford fans maybe not
74, 75, 79-92. these are the years ford did not give factory support when more than two manufacturers have competed. that only leaves 67-73 & 76-78. bear in mind 76 & 78 were not really full efforts from the factory. 10 years to 16, but from 74 it drops to 3 years to 16. ford do not have a good history of supporting motor racing in australia (most places really), so while they are happy to spend, i am happy for this to be the formula. i still vividly remember formula torana and formula comode-dore in the good old days and more often than not they were as boring as bat-droppings

4Vman · 14-07-2008, 10:19 AM

Sometimes i think we remember the "good old days" more because of the affection we have for those cars.. not because the racing was all that great....

||| · 14-07-2008, 10:30 AM

the safety car killed bathurst. now is the "stay on the lead lap until the final safety car then have a sprint race for the final 15 laps Supercheap Auto 1000"

4Vman · 14-07-2008, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by |||

the safety car killed bathurst. now is the "stay on the lead lap until the final safety car then have a sprint race for the final 15 laps Supercheap Auto 1000"

I hate the safety car too, but who wants to watch a race where the leader is a lap in front....

Bearman · 14-07-2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Sometimes i think we remember the "good old days" more because of the affection we have for those cars.. not because the racing was all that great....

Dead right!! I remember 1979 with Brocky winning by 6 laps!! I recall that race being so boring even the commentary team were falling to sleep.

Bathurst is still #1 for me. I will still watch it from go to whoa, have some mates around and have the BBQ on the go. I agree the results are contrived to a degree and the racing has been over sanitised but in recent years it's been close and hard racing all the way to the finish. I end the day happy I've seen a good race and even happier when Ford wins!!

I would like to see more manufacturers in but achieving parity would be a nightmare... it's hard enough with just Holden and Ford.

The irony is that Group A was done away with because of the Nissan Skyline being so dominant but you can't deny it was getting interesting with the Sierras gaining more development, the BMW's getting quicker and the Nissan being weighted down a bit. Imagine if that was retained with the local V8's. The 1993 race was really interesting with the first V8 Supercars in with the Group A's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XA351COUPE

Sorry, but my personal opinion is the V8s in the present format has run its course and needs to be re-vamped, Holden and Ford need to start earning its money and that can only come from compeating with other makes of cars, on and of the race track.

I agree entirely. It's time for the best minds in motorsport to come up with something. The V8's has been great but it's getting stale now.

gtxb67 · 14-07-2008, 10:50 AM

a new aero package might help - something like in indycars. a bathurst wing package for higher downforce circuit and a smaller package for most of the other tracks. maybe a similar thing with brakes. it may help to bring back some overtaking because the cars would not handle as good and would need longer to stop

4Vman · 14-07-2008, 11:01 AM

Group A ultimately ended up a shambles because it favoured car manufacturers with the biggest development budget, or those prepared to spend money on development and building homologation specials. Australian Manufacturers (which attract 90% of the enthusiasts) were always going to struggle under group A because of the pure global economics..

GTP owner · 14-07-2008, 11:26 AM

I am going to say "what's Bathurst?"
I have not watched it for 4 years now. I used to watch it religiously from beginning to end. Not now. Bored. yawn. I prefer to be somewhere else now. I think they call that voting with your feet.