That frigging UAW!

Ohio XB · 05-01-2009, 06:41 AM

I have been told by a number of people here what the Aussie media writes about the UAW. It has occured to me that there is at least as much misrepresentation of the UAW there as there is in our own media in the US.

I am going to post links to video that I believe will provide information that does not get promoted by the media much in either country.

Who am I to do such a thing? Aren't I just going to paint a rosey view of the UAW because I am a member?

I started at Ford in 1992 not knowing why a union would be needed in this day and age, so I am not a died in the wool union guy. Since I have been at Ford I have seen why we thank god they are there and, to be honest, I have seen some things that I wished didn't happen. At the end of the day though I see more good than bad.

MANY people all around the world feel that the UAW has put the Big3 into a bind because the inflexible, unreasonable union wants too much.

This IS how it was.

It's NOT how it is.

Many people feel that the UAW wants to blame the companies only and hold the companies responsible for making all the changes while the UAW workers don't sacrifice anything and keep their cushy incomes. I will show videos in this thread that documents, usually in front of either Congress or the Senate, the consessions and sacrifices that the UAW made when the previous contract was re-opened in 2005, mid-term, to make drastic changes, and then the "transformational" contract of 2007, and ongoing changes that continue to be made.

In this video you see a congresswoman acknowledge many sacrifices made by the UAW and the REALIZATION that the $73/hour figure touted around the world was an inaccurate sound-bite that the media ran away with to paint the UAW in a bad light. You also see UAW President Ron Gettelfinger spelling out how the situation is completely understood and reality "..is what it is..." as far as what the UAW must do in order to make the companies successful again. It's about 2 minutes. This was while making the case for the loans to Congress.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igx3e...eature=related

I am posting this video first because it demonstrates that the UAW gets it, and has got it for a while now. It is not "business as usual" as so many feel.

Steve

steamin63 · 05-01-2009, 04:25 PM

good on you mate. it's nice to see a fair and balanced opinion on this forum [we usually just get OPINIONS]. cheers.

Ohio XB · 05-01-2009, 04:44 PM

Thanks. I am glad it's appreciated.

Mostly what I want to point out is this. There are many things that people complain about specifically with the UAW. They wish the UAW would do this, or they wish the UAW would do that, or they should do this or that. Most of those things have been fair observations about the UAW at some point.

My concern is when these things that the UAW should do ARE done, will people acknowledge it? After all, many people have spent years loving to hate the UAW. If the reasons that they hate the UAW are gone they won't be justified in continuing to hate them and their fun is gone.

In the first video I posted we saw the UAW President demonstrating that the UAW knows the reality of the situation of the Big3 and has and is working with them to help make the companies successful by bargaining concessions and work rule changes that save the companies money and puts them in line with the foreign auto makers (Japanese are usually what they are compared to).

In this next video you see the President stating that they have already agreed to do away with the jobs bank that the board was so interested in going away. He also closes with the statement that the UAW has suspended the jobs bank (which ceases operation of the jobs bank immediately) and will be entering into discussions with the Big3 to end the jobs bank program without a lot of distress to people. By that it means finding what government unemployment programs the people in the jobs bank, and those that would have gone to it when more plants are closed, would be eligible for, if any.

This is even though Toyota pays their employees 100% of their pay when their plants are shut down, as the Tundra truck plant was shut down for two months straight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8MJ0uKXMu4

Steve

Ohio XB · 06-01-2009, 03:16 AM

In today's show is a short video of the UAW President at a news conference.

In this video the President sites an official statement by Toyota of the hourly wages they pay their hourly workers which is $2.33 an hour MORE than the UAW workers are paid per the current contract. He notes that Senator Corker, who was most animate about the UAW workers pay being equal to foreign auto makers in the US, was made clear that this was comparing apples and oranges.

He goes on to state how certain government officials, those most against the loans, constantly wish to blame the union for the ills of the Big3 without siting any facts to back up their accusations and without acknowledging the realities to the contrary. People prefer to make statements that basically have no basis in fact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G0_Q...eature=related

Steve

J_Tank · 06-01-2009, 04:48 PM

Thanks for the videos mate and good luck with the interceptor build.. looks Hot!

b0son · 06-01-2009, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio XB

It is not "business as usual" as so many feel.

Really? So anyone on the 'old' contract is getting a pay cut and reduction in retirement/healthcare benefits?

Its easy to say all NEW contracts will be at much lower cost to the company when its pretty clear the company is weighed down by the cost of the old contracts, and that the company isnt going to be hiring much new staff anytime soon.

Please feel free to correct me as required..

b0son · 06-01-2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio XB

In this video the President sites an official statement by Toyota of the hourly wages they pay their hourly workers which is $2.33 an hour MORE than the UAW workers are paid per the current contract.

That's pay. What about healthcare and pension? What does that increase the figure to?

Ohio XB · 07-01-2009, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

Really? So anyone on the 'old' contract is getting a pay cut and reduction in retirement/healthcare benefits?

Its easy to say all NEW contracts will be at much lower cost to the company when its pretty clear the company is weighed down by the cost of the old contracts, and that the company isnt going to be hiring much new staff anytime soon.

Please feel free to correct me as required..

When I stated "It is not business as usual" I meant in the broad sense.

Are there still some things that are the same? Of course. Is there a majority that is different. You bet.

On paper it might be easy to make a 100% change to a work force. Can you imagine that happening where you work? In reality, with the human factor, it can't be done that way, but drastic changes have been done. Here's some of them.

First, 35,000 - 40,000 people on the "old" contract have been eliminated or took buy-outs. That should make you happy to begin with.

Wages have been frozen since 2005.

Co-pay for healthcare and prescription drug coverage has been increased.

Several healthcare options (providers/programs) have been done away with.

Jobs bank has been eliminated, though no one critisizes Toyota for paying their employees 100% of their pay while the plant production is shut down. Jobs bank didn't pay 100%.

Retirees pay more into their healthcare benefits.

50% of healthcare costs for retirees will be removed from the Big3 January 1, 2010 as the UAW takes on this task with the VEBA. In many other countries there is some kind of national healthcare that the manufacturers in those countries benefit from. The US does not have this and healthcare is customarily an employer benefit no matter where you work.

Certain jobs in the plant are now outsourced to contractors.

A two tier wage system has always been resisted, but now we have it.

A less comprehensive healthcare benefit has always been resisted. It now exists. Also, new hires will not be offered a pension.

Now, if you worked somewhere like an international auto manufacturer for 20 years or more would you feel it fair to you to just slash you down to an income and financial situtation you can get at so many small companies? Would it be a bit of an adjustment?

The biggest part of the imbalance in labor costs between the Big3 and the foreign companies building here are the legacy costs of the retirees. The foreign companies have not been here long enough (25 years is the longest, most others less or much less) to have any retirees. Combined, the foreign companies have less than 1,000 retirees, maybe even less than 500. The Big3 have 1 million retirees. The Big3 had many times more employees than the foreign companies have had as well since they had been here so long.

Read this article on the 2007 contract to learn some of the changes that have been made and the concern that this action will drive wages down across the country.

http://www.multinationalmonitor.org/...08/landon.html

Doing so required UAW members to accept concessions that made their wages and benefits look like those of non-union auto workers. Though givebacks have become customary for the UAW, the 2007 Big Three contracts were seen by many as a watershed in the erosion of good union jobs. The union reversed long-held positions, opening the door to drastic wage and benefit changes, including a new two-tier wage structure that creates a second-class workforce of new hires.

Since UAW workers get an hourly wage of $28 and Toyota workers get an hourly wage of $30 (that's not backwards, no typo) do you really feel that is what is causing the problems of the Big3? I think I've been through this before with how much labor cost there is in a vehicle, including benefits. Labor is 10% or less of the cost of a vehicle. At Ford it is 6.5% the cost to make a vehicle. Is it possible, or reasonable, to believe that there may be some cost savings in the other 93.5% of the costs??? If this were your home budget, where would you be looking to save money, in only the same 6.5% of your budget?

Toyota pays their workers (hourly wage) on par with the Big3, but they've only got a few hundred retirees. GM alone has close to 500,000 retirees. Which company do you think has an advantage? GM has been here 100 years. Toyota has been here about 23 - 25 years.

OK here's where the fun starts. Toyota is waiting with baited breath to slash their wages. Here's a very interesting article....

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2008112120001

The report from Seiichi (Sean) Sudo, president of Toyota Engineering & Manufacturing in North America, said Toyota should strive to align hourly wages more closely with prevailing manufacturing pay in the state where each plant is located, "and not tie ourselves so closely to the U.S. auto industry, or other competitors."

Toyota's strategy resembles what Hyundai Motor Co. uses at its plant in Montgomery, Ala. Assembly workers there make $14 an hour, about half the wages, bonuses and benefits of Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Detroit's automakers. But Hyundai's wages still are considerably higher than for comparable Alabama jobs, which pay $10.79 an hour.

So Toyota will be driving down wages and the Big3 will point to that. Isn't it ironic that Toyota is paying a higher hourly wage than the Big3 and are not critisized for it?

The biggest advantage the foreign auto makers that are here have is that they have not been here long enough to have a vast number of retirees. If they had been here for 100 years the whole game would be different.

Steve

Ohio XB · 07-01-2009, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

That's pay. What about healthcare and pension? What does that increase the figure to?

The point of that statement was to illustrate that specific concern everyone has over the hourly wage of the UAW worker. It is commonly stated that UAW workers get paid so much more than the workers at a place like Toyota. Well, to most people that equates to what the worker receives in their weekly pay check.

The truth is that Toyota workers get a higher hourly wage than UAW workers but no one is screaming about that. So then, is the UAW hourly wage any worse than Toyota's? It is less, so why is it billed as the nail in the coffin for the Big3? Why is it touted to be higher than anyone else? Because most people don't do any homework. Have no fear, new hires will only work for $14/hour.

As for pensions, Toyota has only been here long enough to have about 300 retirees. GM has close to 500,000 retirees as an affect of having been the largest auto manufacturer in the US for decades and having been around for 100 years.

Is this a "fault" of the UAW or merely the way things are?

Here is the Appendix chart that Ford turned in to Congress illustrating parts of their strategy. This one in particular illustrates Ford's expenses against all of the transplants (foreign in US) as an average. Firgures are rounded. You can also scroll through the rest of the charts.

http://media.ford.com/images/10031/1...t#259,2,HOURLY LABOR COST DISADVANTAGE VS. TRANSPLANTS SUBSTANTIALLY REDUCED WITH LATEST UAW AGREEMENT

I have no idea what the "all other" labor costs are, but you can see currently the largest issue, within this 6.5% of the cost of the vehicle, is the legacy, or retiree, costs which get significantly reduced January 1, 2010 with the VEBA.

Even if total labor costs are slashed 50% across the board, that will be a 3.25% savings in the cost of a vehicle. According to the media and many other people that means the problems of the Big3 would be solved, the way they pursue this point!

Are you kidding?

There is also a majority of Ford workers that will be elligible to retire in 5 - 10 years.

Steve

Ohio XB · 07-01-2009, 06:06 AM

Accidental double-post.

GK · 07-01-2009, 07:24 AM

G'Day Ohio,

Just had a lookie at your Interceptor Build. Very nice indeed!

GK

SilentDave · 07-01-2009, 09:48 PM

this may be a stupid question that may have been answered but i have missed it but what is a job bank?

**Luke Plaizier** · 07-01-2009, 10:05 PM

In no way is that a stupid question. Not many people will have heard of that term on this side of the equator. It's a different world down there on the North side of the line..... ;-)

Lukeyson

b0son · 07-01-2009, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentDave

this may be a stupid question that may have been answered but i have missed it but what is a job bank?

A scheme whereby workers aren't laid off (due to restructure or automation etc), but are instead kept on and paid to do nothing, hopefully until such time as they are needed again.

I could understand such a scheme in an industry where the employees are highly trained with very specialised skills not easily acquired or replaced, but process work ......

I would be very surprised if this scheme continues unchanged - it is unsustainable.

Ohio XB · 08-01-2009, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GK

G'Day Ohio,

Just had a lookie at your Interceptor Build. Very nice indeed!

GK

Thanks a lot. Unfortunately it's been stalled about a year and a half.

Steve

Ohio XB · 08-01-2009, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

A scheme whereby workers aren't laid off (due to restructure or automation etc), but are instead kept on and paid to do nothing, hopefully until such time as they are needed again.

I could understand such a scheme in an industry where the employees are highly trained with very specialised skills not easily acquired or replaced, but process work ......

I would be very surprised if this scheme continues unchanged - it is unsustainable.

Above, you read the usual perception of the "jobs bank", which previously went by "GEN" but as of the 2007 agreement goes by JSP which is Job Security Program.

"I would be very surprised if this scheme continues unchanged - it is unsustainable."

That line demonstrates that b0son did not read my above post where I state this program is gone. I want to be clear, this program is no more.

The program was also agreed to by the companies because of several reasons.

In contrast to b0son's belief, the people that are often affected and elligible for JSP would have about $10,000 each worth of company training invested in them. These "process workers", as he likes to call them, are not merely zombies moving their arms about. They would have training in fields such as continuous improvement techniques (quality), error proofing, numerous safety courses, equipment specific training, team building, teamwork, enviromental safety regulations and procedures, and much more. If these people are just let go and find other jobs the companies would be hiring new people and ALL this training has to start over with each one.

While these people are in JSP they are an immediate source of replacement workers at their own and other plants. If an employee or employees retire, die, get injured, or are not able to show up for work for some other reason the employees can be pulled out of JSP and step right into the job with all their training and experience whether needed temporarily or permanently, hopefully.

That's another big thing, experience. These workers know how to use the tools and equipment in a production setting, how to work and get around safely, and have experienced assembly dexterity and techniques. Tools are an extension of them and familiar. What happens before and after their station is understood and if there are any problems they know how to get them remedied as soon as possible.

What do you think it takes to match and surpass the quality of Toyota? Trained monkeys?

To get hired into Ford (for me) required taking tests that lasted 1 1/2 to 2 hours. Besides tests in math, reading comprehension, and logical progression just to name a few, you also had to pass a manual dexterity test. All these tests are timed in addition to graded. Then, even if you do well that doesn't mean you get a job. They only take the top of the bunch. If they need 50 people they might test 300 or more and take the top 50 scores only. It's called "Best In Class". A college degree will not get you one of these jobs. You must take these tests and score in the top percentage needed.

My apprenticeship test had even greater odds. 700 workers signed up for the test. There were only going to be 29 people put onto the apprentice elligiblity list. I made that cut and was number 15 on the list. The lowest score of the 29 on the list was a 99.2%. That test was 5 booklets and lasted about 2 hours.

In the 2007 contract the JSP program was cut down significantly and some traits about it that I thought were rediculous had been done away with. It used to be an indefinite program but in 2007 was limited to 2 years. On December 2, 2008 I believe the UAW President ruled it suspended and the UAW would work with each of the Big3 to eliminate it from the contract.

So that is not a stupid question. Feel free to ask any questions.

Steve

Ohio XB · 23-01-2009, 01:10 AM

UAW reopens contract with Big3.

I don't have a link because I don't think it has hit the media yet.

Steve

XR Martin · 23-01-2009, 06:53 AM

That friggen UAW alright....

http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/10235271/index.html

vztrt · 23-01-2009, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

That friggen UAW alright....

http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/10235271/index.html

lol, that would be the equivalent American ACA.

Ohio XB · 23-01-2009, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

That friggen UAW alright....

http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/10235271/index.html

Now that those guys have been exposed on the news I hope they get what's coming to them.

That was 4 guys out of 2,243 hourly workers at that plant. That is less than .2% of the workers (two-tenths of one percent). I hope you are not branding the other 99.8% of the workers based on these four idiots? I am sure you will find this at ANY company with this many employees. Within a couple thousand people there are always a few idiots.

Steve

Gobes32 · 24-01-2009, 06:38 AM

How on earth do they go missing for so long and nobody notices? In Oz, if you duck off to the can, within 5 mins somebody wants to know where you are. 3 1/2 hour lunches??????? That's unreal.

Ohio XB · 25-01-2009, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

How on earth do they go missing for so long and nobody notices? In Oz, if you duck off to the can, within 5 mins somebody wants to know where you are. 3 1/2 hour lunches??????? That's unreal.

I agree. I don't know how they do it either.

Currently, plants at Ford are working with the UAW to go to 4 ten hour days instead of 5 eight hour days. It has already been done at a couple plants.

One of our benefits was tuition assistance for college. This was $1,500 a year for those that took advantage of it, which the last I heard was about 15% of employees. This is gone now, as would be expected.

I'll post updates as I hear about them.

Steve

Steve

Ohio XB · 07-02-2009, 04:28 AM

Here's an example of the UAW working with a company to adjust to the economy by slashing their wage by 1/3 as the company asked, and then since they did it the company wants more! On top of that the media makes it sound like the union is inflexible.

http://business.theglobeandmail.com/.../Business/home

Here's highlights that give the gist of the article.....

Magna International Inc. [MG.A-T] has abandoned a five-year effort to transform its biggest unionized plant into a flexible and low-cost operation, saying it plans to close the facility after members of the United Auto Workers rejected concessions.

Part of the solution at New Process Gear involved a tentative agreement that called for wages to be chopped to $16 an hour by August from $20.16 now if certain financial goals were not met.

Workers agreed last year to cut their $29.11 an hour wages to $20.16.

So in 2008 the workers were asked to take a wage cut from $29.11 down to $20.16, roughly 1/3 of their wage to be given up. The union approved this to help save the company after the company said this was what they needed to be competitive. Now that the employees were willing to give up that much the company went after more in an attempt to halve what the workers were originally making.

How much do you want to bet that executive pay wasn't reduced any?

Also notice how the media made the issue sound with the opening paragraph of the article...

Magna International Inc. [MG.A-T] has abandoned a five-year effort to transform its biggest unionized plant into a flexible and low-cost operation, saying it plans to close the facility after members of the United Auto Workers rejected concessions.

Makes it sound like that frigging union doesn't want to give up any of their cushy wages or benefits, doesn't it?

So why is the company having problems in the first place? Because of the workers? No, because of a lack of product diversity...

Things didn't turn out that way at the Syracuse operation, in part because the surge in the price of gasoline to more than $4 a gallon last year eviscerated sales of sport utility vehicles, the largest market for the components made at the plant.

Product diversity, or lack there of, is an executive decision, yet the executives want the workers to sacrifice their lifestyles and drop a couple class levels because of the executive's short sightedness.

This is very similar to what is going on at Ford.

This kind of stuff really ticks me off.

Steve

Bill M · 07-02-2009, 08:37 AM

Quote "Product diversity, or lack there of, is an executive decision, yet the executives want the workers to sacrifice their lifestyles and drop a couple class levels because of the executive's short sightedness." Quote Ohio XB

Too right! If an employee fails to perform to an expected standard its generally the tap on the shoulder and out, high level management it seems can stuff up big time and get a golden handshake. Some of these slobs destroy companies from the inside out and get rewarded, how perverse is that!

paule11 · 07-02-2009, 09:03 AM

Plenty of CEOs are employeed to destroy companies Telstra ,Qantas ,QR a few Aussie companies contracting things out here Telstra cant provide the quality of service they did 20 years ago ,

Ohio XB · 07-02-2009, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paule11

Plenty of CEOs are employeed to destroy companies Telstra ,Qantas ,QR a few Aussie companies contracting things out here Telstra cant provide the quality of service they did 20 years ago ,

Robert Nardelli was the head of Home Depot, a huge chain of home improvement stores. His methods of saving on costs was to reduce the number of employees, thereby leaving the customers with no customer service in a store where people are looking for stuff to do something with their homes that they have never done before. People got frustrated and didn't shop there as often. The company went into the ground and he got a golden parachute to leave the company.

...........now he was hired to run Chrysler with no manufacturing experience or even a successful history as CEO.

It's a good racket, if you can get it.

Steve

Mark351 · 07-02-2009, 09:25 AM

No, CEOs like those brought into Telstra are there to maximise shareholder value and returns, not to destroy the company. 20 years ago 'Telecom' was government owned.

Bucknaked · 07-02-2009, 09:35 AM

Whats UAW?

**Bundy** · 07-02-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

Whats UAW?

United Auto Workers

irlewy86 · 08-02-2009, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark351

No, CEOs like those brought into Telstra are there to maximise shareholder value and returns, not to destroy the company. 20 years ago 'Telecom' was government owned.

Therein lies the problem. Any wombat can make profits at Telstra but long term sustainable profits are much more difficult. Squeezing a few dollars here and there can end up costing you an exponential amount in the long term. Most morons cant see past the next reporting period.

If you want to make more money, hire an accountant. If you want to go broke, put him in charge.