Black box' in car crash court case

[MAGPIE]

Interested in peoples opinions on this scenario...

I remember seeing a piece in a car mag about the potential for this to happen a while back, but have never actually seen it go this far here in NZ.

Is this common practice in Australia or other countries ?

Black box' in car crash court case
By MARTY SHARPE - The Dominion Post

Speed data stored in the "black box" of a car's airbag has been cited in a court case, one of the first times such data has been used in a New Zealand court.

However, the defence says police seized the information illegally.

The box was removed from a car involved in a crash in Hawke's Bay last year, and the prosecution has cited the data as evidence the driverwas going faster than he claimed.

Alan Hohaia, 50, of Levin, appeared in Hastings District Court yesterday to defend a charge of dangerous driving causing injury. He faces a jail term of up to five years or a fine of up to $20,000.

Hohaia was driving his high-performance V8 HSV Holden Clubsport from Porangahau, 45 kilometres south of Waipukurau, toward the nearby beach, on January 25.

While rounding a corner he lost control of his car, which crossed the centre line and collided with a Mercedes driven by Peter Gilbert-Kerr, 55.

It took fire crew more than an hour to cut Mr Gilbert-Kerr free. He fractured his arms, legs, pelvis and left hip, and lost the top of his scalp. He spent eight months in hospital, and has no mobility in one hand.

Hohaia suffered minor injuries. Hohaia told the court he was travelling no faster than 110kmh and braked to between 55kmh and 65kmh around the corner.

A crash investigator told the court the corner could be safely negotiated at 58kmh to 68kmh.

To prove the speed Hohaia was travelling, police sent the Holden's airbag data unit to William Haight, director of the San Diego Collision Safety Institute. Mr Haight told the court via video conference yesterday that 2.5 seconds before the crash Hohaia's Holden was travelling at 150kmh and 0.5 seconds before the crash it was travelling at 98kmh.

Mr Haight said the same Bosch data box was used in various makes and models of car. The HSV Holden Clubsport was the same vehicle as a Pontiac GTO and he had been able to read the data on a machine by reading it as if it was from a Pontiac.

But Hohaia's lawyer, Catherine Clarkson, said the data box had been seized illegally. She said Hohaia owned the car when police removed the data box, and the information in it belonged to Hohaia.

Ms Clarkson also questioned the accuracy of Mr Haight's information as it was based on a different make and model car.

Prosecutor Andy Horne said the data box was taken from the car under a search warrant at a time when police believed the car belonged to an insurance company.

Judge Ann Gaskell was due to give an indication of her decision this morning.

[macca13]

If the accident causes death or disability yes they should.

[Boosh Brus]

Originally Posted by macca13

If the accident causes death or disability yes they should.

I agree 100%

[flappist]

And if the black box is completely wrong what defense do you have?

Has anyone here had one of the computers in their car go silly and do stupid things?

I have had idle go up to 2700 rpm, doors lock and unlock randomly, speedo just stop and then start again just to name a few.

We have had a couple of threads on how inaccurate speedos are and this "black box" data comes from accelerometers in the same way that "G-Techs" measure 0-400m (and we all know how accurate and reliable those are).

[Boosh Brus]

That is for the defense to argue. The black box should be used as evidence to support the case.

Not saying it cant happen but it would be crazy for someone to be convicted on a black box alone. I would be mighty peed off if the evidence was rejected and I was the one left crippled

[burnz]

no: as to what flappist's said, how ever next of kin should be able to ask holden for the read out if they want to know.

the police using the "non" compatable softwear to obtain info is subjective at best.

[RG]

Originally Posted by flappist

And if the black box is completely wrong what defense do you have?

Has anyone here had one of the computers in their car go silly and do stupid things?

I have had idle go up to 2700 rpm, doors lock and unlock randomly, speedo just stop and then start again just to name a few.

We have had a couple of threads on how inaccurate speedos are and this "black box" data comes from accelerometers in the same way that "G-Techs" measure 0-400m (and we all know how accurate and reliable those are).

Exactly, before anyone says anything about planes having black boxes etc have a think about maintenance on vehicles compared to aircraft.

Too many variables and too long between maintenance will cause too many issues for these to be reliable.

[fairBA]

correct me if I'm wrong but when certain models depoly air bags - the speedo and tacho stay frozen displaying the speed and revs at the time of the crash - A few cop/crash shows feauturing bseries have done this...

[vztrt]

This info from the 'black box' as its being put requires the police to get a warrent to get the info that is stored (if you have a look in a B-series manual it will actually tell you this). Now the info may be helpful, but as long as investigators dont start thinking that its the be all and end all (like the recent DNA debarcle) then I dont see an issue. The data should be used as a tool to help piece together info on a crash. A planes black box is used that way as they still need to investigate the actual plane and what was going on at the time of the crash.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by macca13

If the accident causes death or disability yes they should.

Yes... and only under those circumstances.

[JimNiki]

I'm wondering when insurance companies are going to start requesting this data to NOT pay out a claim. eg: He was clearly doing 104km/h when the accident occurred.

"Unfortunately, the insurance claim has been voided due to this minor technicality. Have a nice day..."

[GTP-814]

Originally Posted by macca13

If the accident causes death or disability yes they should.

without a doubt

[MexicanBatman]

Originally Posted by flappist

And if the black box is completely wrong what defense do you have?

Has anyone here had one of the computers in their car go silly and do stupid things?

I have had idle go up to 2700 rpm, doors lock and unlock randomly, speedo just stop and then start again just to name a few.

We have had a couple of threads on how inaccurate speedos are and this "black box" data comes from accelerometers in the same way that "G-Techs" measure 0-400m (and we all know how accurate and reliable those are).

Please tell me how accurate they are I made several passes at heathcote and even used my iPhone on one of them and bugger me it was 2km/h off the trap speed ond 0.1 off the et. That's using a telephone not a dedicated tool

[zdcol71]

Question. "Should Police be using vehicle data recorders against owners"
Answer. Yes, as they would and should use, any other information at hand to piece together a body of evidence to be used in a prosecution.

[auxr]

I would agree with the evidence being used only as part of a prosecution case for serious road offences.

Yes - the information obtained may be subject to variables, but with other information the prosecution would also use, witnesses, skid marks on road,the ammount of damage caused to each of the vehicles plus any other forensic evidence the police had at its disposal, would also be used to calculate the speed of the collision.

Someone has been severely injured, therefore in my book, any evidence that can be obtained to back up claims of excessive speed being a major factor or cause of an accident, and results in a conviction, can only be a good result.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by flappist

And if the black box is completely wrong what defense do you have?

Has anyone here had one of the computers in their car go silly and do stupid things?

I have had idle go up to 2700 rpm, doors lock and unlock randomly, speedo just stop and then start again just to name a few.

We have had a couple of threads on how inaccurate speedos are and this "black box" data comes from accelerometers in the same way that "G-Techs" measure 0-400m (and we all know how accurate and reliable those are).

One could ask: How many times has an airbag deployed because the readings were wrong? Hmmmmm

Airbags are only designed to deploy above a certain speed (I think its 40kmh), however if the decelleration is excessive then it will (should) deploy.
i.e: when you are sitting still and are hit head on by a car going faster then 40kmh

Speedos are as accurate as the ADR allows..... so what is the difference between 110kmh or 100kmh if there is a 10% error?
If you as the owner of your car know your speedo is out by 10% then that is your fault for not getting it resolved.

Typically cars involved in serious accidents are towed to the Police compound for their crash investigators to inspect the vehicle. This means they seize the vehicle and anything inside. It is released back to the owner/ insurance company after their investigation is complete.

Id like to see how far you get if you refuse to have your vehicle checked by them in an investigation.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by vztrt

This info from the 'black box' as its being put requires the police to get a warrent to get the info that is stored (if you have a look in a B-series manual it will actually tell you this). Now the info may be helpful, but as long as investigators dont start thinking that its the be all and end all (like the recent DNA debarcle) then I dont see an issue. The data should be used as a tool to help piece together info on a crash. A planes black box is used that way as they still need to investigate the actual plane and what was going on at the time of the crash.

The black box in an aircraft records the outputs from avionics and control systems. These avionics and controls systems are maintained on a VERY regular basis, in the case of bug smashers every 100 hours and in the case of RPT much more often.
This equates to the average car being completely stripped and recalibrated every 4000-5000km or so as opposed to the current practice of NEVER.

The fact that so many are so willing to accept that information supplied for cheap domestic rubbish is gospel is the most frightening although we do live in an age where so many believe anything they read on the internet or see on A Current Affair.

The adage "only in extreme cases" is another trap. What is an extreme case?
Causing death? What about injury?
Causing injury? What about could have caused death or injury?
In other words any and every time your car is being driven this would apply because at any time you can cause death or injury can't you.

Lets look at hoon laws. How many cars have been confiscated for minor operational indiscretions?
A minor chirp or spin leaving the lights in a low traction environment, goodbye car.
A short burst of speed in the middle of woop woop, goodbye car.
A mechanic working on your car does something silly, goodbye car.
An employee talks on a phone and has let their license lapse, goodbye front end loader.

Naive do gooder mentality is the source of almost all the injustice, tyranny and autocracy in Australia and the whole "if it just saves one life" dogma will be the epitaph on the gravestone of performance motoring.

Look at the big picture people otherwise one day you will be stopped for a "random computer check" and have your car confiscated on the spot for doing 150km/h with a grace period of 24 hours for you to prove that it was on a race track not a road.
Of course proving someone else was driving, even the previous owner will just allow you to recover your lost license not recover the "naughty" car.........

[burnz]

what annoys me most is the incompatable sofwear used to gather said info.
why wasn't the box sent to HSV for download??

this is not the first time this senario has cam up, holden said no to nsw courts before but their will be a govco intervention sooner rather than later.

[auxr]

Originally Posted by flappist

The black box in an aircraft records the outputs from avionics and control systems. These avionics and controls systems are maintained on a VERY regular basis, in the case of bug smashers every 100 hours and in the case of RPT much more often.
This equates to the average car being completely stripped and recalibrated every 4000-5000km or so as opposed to the current practice of NEVER.

The fact that so many are so willing to accept that information supplied for cheap domestic rubbish is gospel is the most frightening although we do live in an age where so many believe anything they read on the internet or see on A Current Affair.

The adage "only in extreme cases" is another trap. What is an extreme case?
Causing death? What about injury?
Causing injury? What about could have caused death or injury?
In other words any and every time your car is being driven this would apply because at any time you can cause death or injury can't you.

Lets look at hoon laws. How many cars have been confiscated for minor operational indiscretions?
A minor chirp or spin leaving the lights in a low traction environment, goodbye car.
A short burst of speed in the middle of woop woop, goodbye car.
A mechanic working on your car does something silly, goodbye car.
An employee talks on a phone and has let their license lapse, goodbye front end loader.

Naive do gooder mentality is the source of almost all the injustice, tyranny and autocracy in Australia and the whole "if it just saves one life" dogma will be the epitaph on the gravestone of performance motoring.

Look at the big picture people otherwise one day you will be stopped for a "random computer check" and have your car confiscated on the spot for doing 150km/h with a grace period of 24 hours for you to prove that it was on a race track not a road.
Of course proving someone else was driving, even the previous owner will just allow you to recover your lost license not recover the "naughty" car.........

Flappist _ I can see your logic, but the main issue is the admittance of evidence in a court case.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

One could ask: How many times has an airbag deployed because the readings were wrong? Hmmmmm

Airbags are only designed to deploy above a certain speed (I think its 40kmh), however if the decelleration is excessive then it will (should) deploy.
i.e: when you are sitting still and are hit head on by a car going faster then 40kmh

Speedos are as accurate as the ADR allows..... so what is the difference between 110kmh or 100kmh if there is a 10% error?
If you as the owner of your car know your speedo is out by 10% then that is your fault for not getting it resolved.

Typically cars involved in serious accidents are towed to the Police compound for their crash investigators to inspect the vehicle. This means they seize the vehicle and anything inside. It is released back to the owner/ insurance company after their investigation is complete.

Id like to see how far you get if you refuse to have your vehicle checked by them in an investigation.

How many times has an airbag deployed (or not deployed) because of computer oops?

Many more times than a GPS receiver has transmitted to a satellite.

The airbag systems are designed to check that there is actually an accident happening and you are OVER a certain speed. 41 is over 40, 410 is also over 40 as is any random number between 41 and 160 so if the system can't tell the difference between 60 and 160 it does not matter as it is all over 40 and that is all it needs to know.

The problem is not that they can or do look at the data, it is the presumption that this data accurate and valid.

How would you feel if you were booked for speeding based on a reading from a "radar gun" bought from Toyworld for $49.95?

[jpd80]

That's why I favor point to point radar speed detection, it weeds out those
that speed everywhere and only slow down for the known single point radar traps....

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by jpd80

That's why I favor point to point radar speed detection, it weeds out those
that speed everywhere and only slow down for the known single point radar traps....

Where they're placed, the fixed cameras are better IMO (if it's a choice between the two). We're talking about long highways where sitting near or on the speed limit, focusing on making sure your average speed over a determined distance is less than the posted limit is a lot more dangerous (and mind-numbing) than slowing down for 1 camera.

Recently did a trip out to Bathurst and I'm glad there was roadworks between the two average speed cameras which meant that there was no way you could break the average posted limit. I could travel at a comfortable speed at around 100kph instead of applying brakes on a downhill section of a two lane highway so I don't exceed the average speed.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by jpd80

That's why I favor point to point radar speed detection, it weeds out those
that speed everywhere and only slow down for the known single point radar traps....

Yes because if you want to drive drunk, unlicensed and erratically in an unroadworthy vehicle all you have to do is stay under a number that some public servant put on a sign and everything will be wonderful.......

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by flappist

The black box in an aircraft records the outputs from avionics and control systems. These avionics and controls systems are maintained on a VERY regular basis, in the case of bug smashers every 100 hours and in the case of RPT much more often.
This equates to the average car being completely stripped and recalibrated every 4000-5000km or so as opposed to the current practice of NEVER.

The fact that so many are so willing to accept that information supplied for cheap domestic rubbish is gospel is the most frightening although we do live in an age where so many believe anything they read on the internet or see on A Current Affair.

The adage "only in extreme cases" is another trap. What is an extreme case?
Causing death? What about injury?
Causing injury? What about could have caused death or injury?
In other words any and every time your car is being driven this would apply because at any time you can cause death or injury can't you.

Lets look at hoon laws. How many cars have been confiscated for minor operational indiscretions?
A minor chirp or spin leaving the lights in a low traction environment, goodbye car.
A short burst of speed in the middle of woop woop, goodbye car.
A mechanic working on your car does something silly, goodbye car.
An employee talks on a phone and has let their license lapse, goodbye front end loader.
Naive do gooder mentality is the source of almost all the injustice, tyranny and autocracy in Australia and the whole "if it just saves one life" dogma will be the epitaph on the gravestone of performance motoring.

Look at the big picture people otherwise one day you will be stopped for a "random computer check" and have your car confiscated on the spot for doing 150km/h with a grace period of 24 hours for you to prove that it was on a race track not a road.
Of course proving someone else was driving, even the previous owner will just allow you to recover your lost license not recover the "naughty" car.........

Since we are straying off the subject so much here.....

RPT aircraft are not serviced at more frequent periods of 100hrs. Yes they go in for a check every 25hrs or so but its to do only a particular part of the aircraft. That way it only takes a few days to do a particular area of the service, instead of many weeks to do a complete service.

Extreme cases.... what is more extreme then serious injury? death?
Since you decided to use aircraft as an example, every RPT accident or incident is investigated and EVERYONE is put through the wringer.

Would you prefer when an airliner crashes and killed people they dont investigate it using EVERY means possible?
Because what your saying is exactly that in the case of a motor vehicle accident. That Police should not do anything and sit on their ***** all day.

So what if they didnt go to Holden to get the thing read. Holden DIDNT make it.... Bosch did.

An employee talks on a phone and has let their license lapse, goodbye front end loader.

And?? Whats your point here? Dont tell the whole story, but just generalize.
The idiot was on a public road talking on a phone without a license.... Again you seem to prefer people doing anything they want without any form of repocussions....

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes because if you want to drive drunk, unlicensed and erratically in an unroadworthy vehicle all you have to do is stay under a number that some public servant put on a sign and everything will be wonderful.......

You just lamented before about a guy driving unlicenced and talking on his mobile phone having a front end loader taken away from him..... and here you are saying that you prefer cops on the road instead of speed cameras.

Amazing how quick the thread topic goes astray

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

So what if they didnt go to Holden to get the thing read. Holden DIDNT make it.... Bosch did...

sorry to selective quote...
but by that logic why didnt they take it to ford??

fact is bosch is just hardware with rudamentry bios, gm, ford, merc, and all else add their own softwear

[pottery beige]

Big brother can get stuffed...

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by burnz

sorry to selective quote...
but by that logic why didnt they take it to ford??

fact is bosch is just hardware with rudamentry bios, gm, ford, merc, and all else add their own softwear

To prove the speed Hohaia was travelling, police sent the Holden's airbag data unit to William Haight, director of the San Diego Collision Safety Institute. Mr Haight told the court via video conference yesterday that 2.5 seconds before the crash Hohaia's Holden was travelling at 150kmh and 0.5 seconds before the crash it was travelling at 98kmh.

If your going to read it you take it to the manufacturer or a company/ organistion who is impartial.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by flappist

Look at the big picture people otherwise one day you will be stopped for a "random computer check" and have your car confiscated on the spot for doing 150km/h with a grace period of 24 hours for you to prove that it was on a race track not a road.

This is already happening with heavy vehicles. The task force regularly stop trucks and “plug into them” to make sure that limiters aren’t tampered with.

What has our country come to?

The Kenworth I drive is GPS tracked, and that means everything, braking applications, braking distance, deceleration, G forces in corners, the lot.
But, if I were to have some major accident, the police would be kicking the front door of my employer in demanding the data from the vehicle under the “chain of responsibility” laws.

Whether they get this information or not, I’m not sure but they would give it a bloody good try.

They have no right to this from anyone. If they want to convict someone, they can damn well do the investigation themselves, not rely on outside data that in many cases, they have to legal right to.

In my opinion, we are becoming a police state.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

To prove the speed Hohaia was travelling, police sent the Holden's airbag data unit to William Haight, director of the San Diego Collision Safety Institute. Mr Haight told the court via video conference yesterday that 2.5 seconds before the crash Hohaia's Holden was travelling at 150kmh and 0.5 seconds before the crash it was travelling at 98kmh.

If your going to read it you take it to the manufacturer or a company/ organistion who is impartial.

thats proves nothing, i can download your (ford) softwear with anything similar doesn't mean that it accurate.

and thats a mistake on it's own.... airbag data