Legal Minded, Not So Legal Minded, Opinionated, Maligned, Cheesed Off Or Plain Scared

[SEZ213]

As members of the AFF we have become (or were to begin with as it may be) incredibly passionate about many things – The vehicles we drive, own, who we share the roads with and how they drive as well.

With these points in mind, and noting the passion that I see in many members posts, I come to you with a proposal (and an approval from Russ – cheers for that! - I've posted it here as I believe it's technically automotive related, but feel free to move at your whim! )

Whilst people will suggest that there is little that we can do as individuals to deal with these frustrations, as a collective body of people, we hold a much stronger voice.

I believe from this collective voice (and with enough publicity behind it), it is possible to actually make the voice of the majority heard.

The concept that I have in mind is a draft proposal, available for all members of AFF to contribute to prior to a final draft and submission to the Federal Minister for transport as well as every single State and Local Government minister in your area regarding what we, as regular road users and enthusiasts, and just plain concerned citizens, believe are the best options to ensure that we as road users are all safe.

As a collective body, we talk a lot about these such rules and how they continually effect us, a small percentage of us actually write to our local MP's etc., this may just provide the tools to attempt to have some impact of the current legislation.

This proposal will not just entail the current stipulations for driving regulations but also how easy it is to obtain a licence, keep a licence, and what legislation should be when it comes to policing of minor speeding infringements, ADR's, etc.

Currently there are numerous state based laws which are seen to be overruled by commonwealth laws (as applicable).

My proposal is to target each individual issue in depth, and any issue that you as members of a democratic society deems suitable for discussion and collaboration.

Yes, it is a pie in the sky idea, but so was Einstein and his theory of relativity (among others). :P

We can remain quiet and continue to grumble about these things or we can put some action behind the grumbles and make it virtually impossible for us a society to remain unheard.

If anything a politician wants to be elected (or re-elected as it may be), I think most you would find, particularly the opposition, will jump on the bandwagon if it means some extra votes for them.

So, in saying all of this – if you do have suggestions as to what needs to be raised in this proposal, please let me know. If you have factual evidence behind it, please also include this, as it will save me a lot of time.

Whatever it is that grinds your gears (legitimate), please do post.

If you make note of education in road users, please note the particular area you see as the concern, as specific as possible, and it will make it much easier for me and anyone else who decides to help me work on this mammoth project

NOTE:

- I DO NOT want rants about revenue raising – this proposal will NOT make any allegations or purport to know this as fact (regardless of feelings or media coverage on such matters).

- This proposal will be based around FACTUAL and STATISTICAL information, experience and possible legal precedent (if required or deemed necessary, or if there is any).

- So please, be constructive and be considerate. The last thing I want is this thread closed because people start bickering or slipping away from the actual cause here.

- This will not be a quick fix, as a proposal of this nature will require quite some time and effort to ensure that it actually will be heard – patience is a virtue, and perhaps, just perhaps, we might get a positive outcome for everyone.[/list]

EDIT: If you can please also let me know roughly what area you're from and I will endeavour to find out information where possible on local/state laws applicable to your area (if they are local/state issues).

[04redxr8]

Great idea. Do you want us to just our ideas here?

[Yellow_Festiva]

Ok.. why not,

What grinds my gears?

* The proposed tolerance for speeding that does not match the tolerance allowed in car speedos. So a person may be caught speeding when their car actually shows they are not.

* The way you keep your demerit points even if you take your matter to court and they find you were wrongly fined / charged. (So you get the fine dropped, but not the points... go figure).

* The way modified or 'tampered with' cars may be put under further scrutiny in the future. Yet I can find a 1930-60's car, restore it to factory specs and drive it as I please. Which one is less safe I wonder?

* A curfew for P platers I hear? What's next...

* The replacement of cops on the beat with covert camera law enforcement.

Cheers,

Jason

[SEZ213]

Yep! That would be great, then we probably won't get too many reposts of the same suggestion, just additions to the evidence behind it.

I'm guessing this thread will get rather long, but that's okay!

[Road_Warrior]

Uniform national driving standards and road rules, we're half way there with vehicle and license classifications so its time to complete the package.

Uniform national standards on the usage and deployment of revenue-generating traffic enforcement devices (speed cameras) with greater transparency of use to avoid "predatory" deployment (ie so they can't be hidden).

Compulsory minimum 3rd party insurance for all motorists.

Prohibition on local government from conducting traffic enforcement functions - this should be the reserved authority of the Police and no one else.

Accountability of government bureaucrats who invent some of the twaddle policy that the rest of us have to swallow. For example, the Office of Road Safety in WA is 'under the wing' of the Department of Premier and Cabinet; the ORS resisted calls to be moved under the Department for Transport because they "enjoyed the clout" that comes with being with the Department of Premier and Cabinet to "get things done". More like, they wanted to keep hiding behind the Premier's office so they didn't need to be accountable to the public.

[Geez Louise]

What a fantastic idea. Great to see someone actually putting something together...not just talking about it. Well done!

I do have some suggestions but want to get facts before I post them up.

[Yellow_Festiva]

I missed one....

E10! I mean, is it 91, 92, 93, 94 or 95 RON?? And if ethanol is an octane booster, what is the base product they are blending it with to get 91RON E10?

What will the drivers of cars not E10 compatible do once ULP is gone? Run E10 at the detriment of their fuel system, or spend an extra 10-15cpl for premium?

There are still a lot of newer cars on the road that are not E10 compatible and this decision is to the detriment of those drivers.

[Yaw]

I will go one step further than uniform Traffic/Transport departments.

I would like to see a SINGLE federal transport department rather than state based.

[xc4me]

this is a great idea, ditto what geez louise wrote!

[Road Games]

Two things spring to mind ..

1: The P plater that sits up my backside every time i am travelling under or on the speed limit in whatever speed zone but isnt allowed to exceed 100kph on a 110kph freeway.

2: The undercover cop in the (information with-held so that ignoramus P-plater may actually learn something) trying to bait me into a drag race.

The new HOON laws are an absolute farce!!!

[Yellow_Festiva]

Agree regarding the different road rules and vehicle regulations for each state and territory.

Taking the best parts from each state and making a nation wide rule book will be much better and easier, and probably save many millions in the process.

[Jack91]

CTP should also include 3rd party property damage in registration fee, or, you have to supply proof you have this cover from another insurer.

Slim down the hours new drivers on their L's need, make it say 20 hours, however, include a mandatory skidpan/defensive driving course before the driving test. This fee can be added to the license fee of your first provisional license.

Abolish the Learner and Provisional rules of 80 or 90km/hr maximum speed, this contributes greatly to other road users' anger and can cause a bad situation with other inpatient drivers.

Heavy policing of headlights at night, including dazzling other drivers with high beams and people who drive with park lights on only.

"Hooning" laws should be rid of entirely. Stick with undue noise and driving dangerousley/etc.

Maybe provide an incentive for young drivers to buy newer cars with ABS etc. Could be a reduction in rego fees by $20 for every safety feature.

5 yearly refresher course, just a quick drive with an instructor for all license holders. Will be included in rego fee.

Roadworks signs and speed limits should be removed after hours/on weekends if the road is up to scratch.

Police and issue fines to people driving too slowly, this creates as big of a risk as driving too fast. (say 10% under the limit is a small fine or a warning)(trucks and genuine excuses are allowed obviousely).

Any road in which a speed camera or radar is deployed, that road must have adequate signage of what the speed limit is (I got done 60km/h in a 50km/h, without knowing it was a 50 zone. No sign at all on this road and it was mainly industrial)

[My poor XF]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Compulsory minimum 3rd party insurance for all motorists.

I think this is an excellent idea.

[Road_Warrior]

There's a slight problem, called the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Australia, that at the moment prohibits the Commonwealth from legislating for matters that are powers reserved for the States and Territories. This would need to be overcome first with the agreement of the State and Territory governments before the Federal Government could push national road rules and the like.

[RSgerry]

Agree with the uniformity of a federal based approach to legislation (although I think this may not be possible constitutionally). This could cover speed limits, tolerances or even standards to vehicle modification.

Unfortunately, we cannot legislate common sense into our politicians...see rob johnson in WA. before him, the delightful michelle roberts.

It might help politicians cause if 100% of revenue raised from kodak cops was put back into road safety, not used as part of the budget for other items. That has been promised to the good people of WA over and over and each succesive government fails to honour that promise. Better roads (coalfields road in Collie would be a start), more overtaking lanes, more visible police presence etc.

[Iggypoppin']

More training for younger drivers, not just "racking up hours" in a log book. Proper training and courses subsidized by the government. And courses that will actually HELP young drivers be safer, not just typical "don't speed" crap.

Adjust speeding fines so that the fine is halved, but the points are doubled. Prove to us you greedy gov's aren't just in it for the money. By doubling demerits, but easing financial pressure, the average driver realizes he/she must be more vigilant on the road.
And while we are at it, a proper check of speed cameras, proof they are accurate and proof they are taking a picture of one car, not three and one gets the fine.

An overhaul of the laws imposed on modifications in all states. This means the discretion used to impose a defective vehicle notice on a vehicle. The loose methods used in determining the legality of a cars modifications must be looked at.
Also, the people who determine what is and is not illegal by way of a modification. How is a wheel being 3" bigger than factory dangerous(if there's a proper reason, i'd like to know)

[Riksta]

Originally Posted by DAVO_XR

CTP should also include 3rd party property damage in registration fee, or, you have to supply proof you have this cover from another insurer.

I love this idea, however, lets also allow us to choose our CTP Bodily Injury (compulsory) insurer and put some competition into the market, might help reduce some of our registration costs if we can shop around instead of having no option but to go with who they tell us.

Licensing should be more expensive (don't shoot me!). I feel that nearing the end of an L plate period, an extensive defensive driver training course should be compulsory, paid for by the person going for their license. Likewise, the same kind of course but more advanced should be gone through before graduating to a full license. Now, I know its a bit draconian, but if you have to work harder and pay more to get a license, people might respect the PRIVILEGE (not a right) to drive on our roads.

Minimum amounts of hours L plate drivers have to log before being able to graduate to P plates. Now I know this is already in place, but I'm thinking minimum amount of hours with an ACCREDITED driving instructor. Let them still drive the family around with mum or dad in the passenger seat as more practice, but don't count these hours towards what is required. Make them learn and serve their hours with someone who is fully accredited and recognised to perform those duties.

An instant prison term (say 1 month?) for anybody caught driving on a disqualified license. Too many times I hear of people who have been caught driving on a disqualified license only to have the disqualification extended by a few more months. HELLO, they've been driving disqualified already, do you think extending that period is going to deter them? The thought of a month long stint in a cell with a bloke named Bubba might make people think twice about driving while disqualified.

This is all I can think of at the moment but I'm sure with a bit more thought I'll come up with some more!

[04redxr8]

A federal licensing policy. This suggestion may annoy some people, but here goes.

Before a learner driver is allowed to apply for their provisional license, they complete at least a 2 day driver traing course. At the end of the driver training course, an accredited driving trainer, will then evaluate the driver. Evaluation should be on car control, confidence in emergency situations, wet weather car control, and an ability to observe their surroundings while driving. If a student fails, they must redo the course, until they pass. The course will be paid for by the applicant, with no Government subsidy for learners. Once the applicant has demonstrated that they are able to operate a car in a safe and competant manner, only then may they proceed to obtaining their provisional license.

A further more advanced course should also be applied prior to a provisional license holder obtaining an open license.

All current open license holders should also be retested at license renewal time. (Say every 5 years). An open license holder failing the course will result in the license being suspended until such time as the applicant can pass the course, demostrating that they can safely operate a motor vehicle.

Again, the applicant should pay for the course. Driving is a privilidge. NOT A GOD GIVEN RIGHT. If it was, law enforcement wouldn't be able to suspend licenses.

People of retirement age (65) should be tested every 2 years, with a Government subsidy for pensioners.

The Government would then need to assist in building motor sport and skidpan facilities for driver training, and also for drivers to practice. These facilities should also be able to cater to enthusiast groups, who would like somewhere safe and legal to practice their driving skills.

People whose license have been suspended, will need to do a more thorough course, before having their licenses reinstated.

Minor road offences should be dealt with cautions, while more serious infringements should result in tougher punishment (longer loss of license for high speed, jail for DUI-no ifs, buts or court trials).

Drivers who are cause accidents or appear to be incompetant (driving way too slow, not knowing how to merge, poor car in lane management, and just in general useless drivers), should have their licenses immediately suspended until they can successfully pass the driver training.

These driver training days could be used to show as many videos and images of real road deaths as our government wants. (Don''t want to see them- don't apply for a license).

The program should be designed by a panel of independant driver trainers, and should have no Government or beauracratic influence regarding structure, course content, or practices.


All foreign visitor and immigrants (regardless of country of origon, or past driving history) will undergo the same courses before being able to hold an Australian drivers license. International Licenses should not be accepted.


And lastly drivers will take full responsibility for all their own actions on the road.


Sorry for the essay, being thinking about that idea for a long time.

[04redxr8]

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

Also, the people who determine what is and is not illegal by way of a modification. How is a wheel being 3" bigger than factory dangerous(if there's a proper reason, i'd like to know)

Off topic, sorry, But it has to do with load on the wheel bearings.

[Riksta]

LOL, same sort of ideas posted at the same time. What's going on here? Good to know I'm not the only one that thought of getting L & P platers to pay for driving courses as part of their training though!

[GT69]

Clearer, bleedingly obvious speed signs, think lights. School zones to all get the lights informing when they are active and when they are not. Leave no doubt in anyone's mind what the speed limit is and thus removing any excuses.

Focusing on more than just speed, more RBT's and licence/rego checks, harsher penalties for people found driving disqualified.

Better training for all drivers, remove the stigma of 'A to B' and have people understand that what they are driving is a lethal weapon, not a fridge.

I have more, but my minds drawing a blank

[04redxr8]

Originally Posted by Riksta

LOL, same sort of ideas posted at the same time. What's going on here? Good to know I'm not the only one that thought of getting L & P platers to pay for driving courses as part of their training though!

LLO. yep user pays is the way to go. Make it harder too. The less drivers on the road the better.

But also carry it through for all open licence holders too. Every 5 years.

[SEZ213]

My biggest gripe so far about living in the sunshine state is as follows (and I've done a little research on this so bear with me):

To register my car in Qld, I have to give the 'dutiable value' - this value is determined by Queensland Transport as 'the greater of list price, purchase price or market value'. Now, I don't mind paying a duty on something, but at relevant pricing. When I purchased my car in 2003, I paid $18,500 for it, it's now valued at $4000, 7 years later.

The difference in the duty that I pay as a result - $555.00 for the former, $120.00 for the latter. My total bill to change my registration from Victoria to Queensland, if done legally and as per the 'dutiable value' of the vehicle...$1232.90 for a 1.6L 4 cylinder vehicle...which equates to roughly two years worth of rego in Victoria.

Personally, I would like to see these types of duties and 'Traffic improvement' fees removed from the consolidated revenue pot - if it's there for traffic improvement, use it for traffic improvement, NOT something else unrelated.

All fines from traffic infringements to go back into education and social reform, including those instances whereby a judge has imposed a fine for careless, reckless driving, etc. should go into this pot as well.



To further this point a little more, I would like to see a federal registration policy come into play - the exact same registration cost for everyone.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

A federal licensing policy. This suggestion may annoy some people, but here goes.

Fantastic idea - I would be keen to know why you think people would be annoyed with this? This is also a relevant issue when you note that people are moving interstate more frequently, incurring a cost every time they move state and change their licence over - a federal licencing policy could potentially render these additional fees that we pay to do so, null and void.

You've come up with some great suggestions here, and definitely some worth exploring a little more in depth to see where I can slot them into what is now being dubbed by me as the 'novel'...

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by My poor XF

I think this is an excellent idea.

I have a question - CTP (compulsory third party) is compulsory - which state is it not CTP and just TP insurance?

This is an interesting one...

[Iggypoppin']

A better speed limit structure. Any Adelaide resident working in the city who had to drive down west tce the other day will attest; it was a bloody disgrace and makes me wonder which dunce had set the signs. 7 or 8 speed changes on one small stretch of road, what is that?

To answer the post above about wheels, I was wondering if there was any more you can tell me about this? I might just be a sceptic but I fail to see how 19" wheels on an EB falcon is dangerous(don't wish to come across rude, just not seeing it here!)

[JC]

How about more policing of all traffic laws, not just speeding. For example, people who sit in the right hand lane on a multilane road (I don't care of they're going too fast or too slow - get out of the lane if you can travel in the left just as well!!). People who SPEED UP when being overtaken. People who sit up to 10km/h under the speed limit on a highway, but first overtaking lane they're off like a jack rabbit, only to slow down to 90 again when the lanes form back into one. People who do way less than the speed limit with no reason (I was stuck behind a 60 something female the other day - she was doing 50 in an 80 zone; she shouldnt even have a license).

[Iggypoppin']

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I have a question - CTP (compulsory third party) is compulsory - which state is it not CTP and just TP insurance?

This is an interesting one...

I think they are saying that the CTP should be property damage insurance as well as personal injury.

[JC]

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

A better speed limit structure. Any Adelaide resident working in the city who had to drive down west tce the other day will attest; it was a bloody disgrace and makes me wonder which dunce had set the signs. 7 or 8 speed changes on one small stretch of road, what is that?

To answer the post above about wheels, I was wondering if there was any more you can tell me about this? I might just be a sceptic but I fail to see how 19" wheels on an EB falcon is dangerous(don't wish to come across rude, just not seeing it here!)

A bit O/T, but 19" wheels are fine on any car, as long as you keep the rolling diameter +/- 15mm from standard. However, 1" wider than the widest wheel factory fitted to that car is all that's legal. For an EB, the GT came with 17x8s so you could go to 9" rim legally.

[JC]

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

I think they are saying that the CTP should be property damage insurance as well as personal injury.

Spot on.