Heads up for those worried about qaulity of fuel...

Road Games · 25-01-2011, 09:09 AM

This could be a god send.. please move to a better area for the racers/tuners if need be mods ?

I wont fill up at the BP 300m away from my house because the car always feels lame afterwards....

Once i am tuned on E85 and using E-flex, I am going to buy this and report my findings !

http://www.quickfueltechnology.com/s...test-tube.html

E85 offers many benefits to performance enthusiasts and racers with its 105-octane rating, cooler engine temperatures and cleaner emissions. The variations from pump-to-pump for street driving are negligible, but to the racer, even a small percentage change of ethanol can determine the outcome of a race if nothing is done to compensate. Consistency is especially important for bracket racers where a win can be determined by thousandths of a second.

E85 fuel is said to contain 85-percent ethanol and 15-percent gasoline, but the fuel mixture can vary anywhere from a low of 70-percent all the way up to 85-percent ethanol depending on place of refinement and season of purchase. Quick Fuel Technology's E-Checker will let you know exactly what you are pouring into your tank.

The QFT E-Checker can help the racer calibrate their air/fuel mixture. Using the E-Checker takes only a few moments and is simple to use. First you add water to the first line on the E-Checker and then pour in the E85 sample to the second line. The ethanol absorbs the water and the gasoline floats on top revealing a definitive boundary. This boundary will lie in the area of the E-Checker that is graduated giving you the percentage of ethanol in the E85 fuel. The glass E-Checker comes with it's own durable carrying case to keep it safe in any toolbox.

For more information, contact the fuel delivery experts at: Quick Fuel Technology, 129 Dishman Lane, Bowling Green, KY 42101

bigsta · 25-01-2011, 09:20 AM

I use to find the old E10 went alright but since they changed the fuels around and replaced unleaded with e10 now if i put E10 in the territory my fuel economy goes out the window along with my performance....

So why is e10 which contains 10% ethanol so crap???

irish2 · 25-01-2011, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigsta

I use to find the old E10 went alright but since they changed the fuels around and replaced unleaded with e10 now if i put E10 in the territory my fuel economy goes out the window along with my performance....

So why is e10 which contains 10% ethanol so crap???

Because ethanol has roughly 65% the yield of petrol. It is only beneficial where you have excessive compression. On a standard motor it is worthless.

**ebxr8240** · 25-01-2011, 10:09 AM

Some engines run very lean now.. Our 05 Focus is the same...
E10 / E85 requires 30% more fuel than petrol at 1 to 1 use..
I think it's NOT just Ethanol they have added ? It's rubbish fuel as well..
As with all alcohol fuels they burn slower and run well with more advance / timing and compression... This can bring fuel consumption back a little as your not opening the throttle to make the same power..
Soon there maybe engine management that reads what fuel is being run..
There are aftermarket ECU's out there which have multiple tunes for different fuels...
In time hopefully different fuels won't be a problem...

flappist · 25-01-2011, 10:16 AM

You do realise that if your car is E85 specific you will be stuck down there is the SE corner.

colinl · 25-01-2011, 10:24 AM

E85 works well if you build and tune the engine to take advantage of that higher octane. Its availability isn't good yet as flappist mentioned. With the addition of an ethanol sensor and blended maps you can get away with using a range of ethanol percentages.

colinl · 25-01-2011, 10:32 AM

Oh, one other thing. A guy I know owns a dyno shop in Penrith. He was saying how much they love the E85 for performance stuff (he does mostly injection and forced induction work). He did mention though that it can be pretty potent if you breath in the exhaust fumes. He did a tune on his partners car and within a short period of time realised he was totally smashed and had to go home. He reckons his head was killing him the next day.

castellan · 25-01-2011, 12:11 PM

DAZZLER351 that BP station may not go through a lot of 98 fuel?

colinl it could not be any worse than some cars running 91 ?

I don't know why the falcon 6 cyl smell so bad and the new toyota camry, boy camry's can be bad they must be running to rich. i think the camry on the highway are using cruise control and when they encounter a bit of a hill the throttle is maybe flat to the floor.

Commodors don't smell as bad.

I think it gives me every right to over take smelly cars like that in the regards to my health & driving safety as it can make you feel sick.
I had some dude spinning nonsense about the 91 octane as an additive to make it smell like that.

flappist · 25-01-2011, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colinl

Oh, one other thing. A guy I know owns a dyno shop in Penrith. He was saying how much they love the E85 for performance stuff (he does mostly injection and forced induction work). He did mention though that it can be pretty potent if you breath in the exhaust fumes. He did a tune on his partners car and within a short period of time realised he was totally smashed and had to go home. He reckons his head was killing him the next day.

Now there is a thought.

How long before a defense against a DUI is based on fumes inhaled while driving in peak hour traffic including some tunnels......

blueoval · 25-01-2011, 12:34 PM

I have been using E-Flex for nearly 6months. I have had my car specifically tuned for E85, but have found my car runs harder with this fuel as a 40/60 mix. Fuel economy is about 400km to a tank with spirited driving.

colinl · 25-01-2011, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castellan

colinl it could not be any worse than some cars running 91 ?

The main problem is that we are talking performance cars, so there can at times be a lot of unburned fuel being emitted, especially on warm up. The difference being instead of a level of 10% alcohol we have 85% alcohol, and it has a nice direct route to the bloodstream through the lungs.

madmelon · 25-01-2011, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colinl

The main problem is that we are talking performance cars, so there can at times be a lot of unburned fuel being emitted, especially on warm up. The difference being instead of a level of 10% alcohol we have 85% alcohol, and it has a nice direct route to the bloodstream through the lungs.

Sorry but I believe that's absolute rubbish. I've been responsible for operation of a high performance motorbike engine on a dyno for the last 18 months and during the month we tested E85, there was no raw fuel coming from the exhaust at all, despite testing both ridiculously rich and lean and at all operating conditions. Yes it smells different to a regular exhaust, most likely due to a different compound being present but its fairly obvious the smell isn't straight ethanol.

Exhaust fumes have the potential to give you a headache if you breathe them in, regardless of fuel. At no point during our testing did anyone in or near the dyno come under the effects of alcohol due to the exhaust.

**ebxr8240** · 25-01-2011, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colinl

Oh, one other thing. A guy I know owns a dyno shop in Penrith. He was saying how much they love the E85 for performance stuff (he does mostly injection and forced induction work). He did mention though that it can be pretty potent if you breath in the exhaust fumes. He did a tune on his partners car and within a short period of time realised he was totally smashed and had to go home. He reckons his head was killing him the next day.

Bad tune or big cams will do that.. Besides it should have some sort of exhaust extraction out of building or at least duty of care to workers etc..
It burns slower .. More timing is required... Longer explosion on piston..

colinl · 25-01-2011, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmelon

Sorry but I believe that's absolute rubbish. I've been responsible for operation of a high performance motorbike engine on a dyno for the last 18 months and during the month we tested E85, there was no raw fuel coming from the exhaust at all, despite testing both ridiculously rich and lean and at all operating conditions. Yes it smells different to a regular exhaust, most likely due to a different compound being present but its fairly obvious the smell isn't straight ethanol.

Exhaust fumes have the potential to give you a headache if you breathe them in, regardless of fuel. At no point during our testing did anyone in or near the dyno come under the effects of alcohol due to the exhaust.

I'm not saying it is the truth, just what I've been told. The guy has been in the industry for some time and from my perspective very knowledgeable. It is important to understand that he works on highly modified high HP engines. In this case it was a high HP turbocharged rotary track car. I'm a little hazy on the exact circumstance of this occurrence, but from memory it was compounded by the engine being cold and a section of the floor plan open. He claims that it effected him that bad he had to go home, the headache was the next day. Considering he has been doing this type of work for about 20 years I'm willing to consider he may know the effects of normal exhaust fumes.

colinl · 25-01-2011, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Bad tune or big cams will do that.. Besides it should have some sort of exhaust extraction out of building or at least duty of care to workers etc..
It burns slower .. More timing is required... Longer explosion on piston..

Yep. In this case I think it was a combination of the poor scavenging at low speed that rotaries exhibit and the richer running while cold. I'm not sure why his exhaust extraction didn't work well enough, he did mention that he neglected to cover an opening in the floor plan. I just think it sounds very plausible and worth thinking about.

bigsta · 25-01-2011, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castellan

DAZZLER351 that BP station may not go through a lot of 98 fuel?

colinl it could not be any worse than some cars running 91 ?

I don't know why the falcon 6 cyl smell so bad and the new toyota camry, boy camry's can be bad they must be running to rich. i think the camry on the highway are using cruise control and when they encounter a bit of a hill the throttle is maybe flat to the floor.

Commodors don't smell as bad.

I think it gives me every right to over take smelly cars like that in the regards to my health & driving safety as it can make you feel sick.
I had some dude spinning nonsense about the 91 octane as an additive to make it smell like that.

Agreed the smell of the falcon exhaust to the commodore is like chalk and cheese commy has no smell compared to the terry 6.

Funnily enough I have found the commodore (3.8 VV2) loves the e10 where as the territory does not.

**SSD-85** · 25-01-2011, 08:24 PM

E10 is magic on my XR8. More power, cleaner burn & a VERY minute change in economy. Plus its cheaper. A godsend to say the least.

jpd80 · 25-01-2011, 09:06 PM

I sometimes wonder how a more conservative Ethanol mix like Brazil's E25 would
be as a new car Fuel standard, something to eventually replace straight ULP.

so forget E10, go to E5 across the board and make new cars run something like E25
then watch the small capacity turbo engines replace large capacity NA engines.
That would help the cane farmers, environment and bring greater efficiency to cars.

irish2 · 25-01-2011, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

I sometimes wonder how a more conservative Ethanol mix like Brazil's E25 would
be as a new car Fuel standard, something to eventually replace straight ULP.

so forget E10, go to E5 across the board and make new cars run something like E25
then watch the small capacity turbo engines replace large capacity NA engines.
That would help the cane farmers, environment and bring greater efficiency to cars.

Incase you have been living under a rock whilst the ethanol debate has existed, certain cars CAN NOT use any ethanol blend without significant modification. Especially anything with a carby that is not prepped for alcohol.

JOSH · 25-01-2011, 10:06 PM

whats the cost of e85 in QLD?

**ebxr8240** · 25-01-2011, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colinl

Yep. In this case I think it was a combination of the poor scavenging at low speed that rotaries exhibit and the richer running while cold. I'm not sure why his exhaust extraction didn't work well enough, he did mention that he neglected to cover an opening in the floor plan. I just think it sounds very plausible and worth thinking about.

Aha Matt at Race Solutions... ???

colinl · 25-01-2011, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irish2

Incase you have been living under a rock whilst the ethanol debate has existed, certain cars CAN NOT use any ethanol blend without significant modification. Especially anything with a carby that is not prepped for alcohol.

It's not only some cars, but e10 is not well liked in the marine, motorcycle, or OPE industries. Most cars that use it will see an increase in fuel consumption and a decrease in power (it has less calorific value than petrol). The cost of the fuel should offset the extra usage though. It isn't till we get some high percentages of ethanol like the e85 that the higher octane allows higher compression ratio's or more boost.

I think its big advantage is political. It is something we can produce here in Australia rather than buy from overseas. There are definitely some positives with its use, there are also quite a few negatives.

It is hygroscopic and will suck the moisture out of the air. Apart from the moisture build up, the water will also bond with the ethanol and strip it from the petrol. In fuels that use ethanol as an octane booster this will naturally cause the octane rating to fall.

It is more likely to cause vapour lock problems.

Deteriorates some plastics, rubbers, fibreglass, alloy components.

Takes more energy to produce than it releases.

Is dirtier to produce than petrol (although petrol will get harder to produce).

Competes with food source crops (although in Australia we are using mainly waste product for its manufacture).

When used with petrol it transports some of the nasties in petrol like, benzine and MTBE into our biosphere much faster and allows them to stay much longer.

colinl · 25-01-2011, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Aha Matt at Race Solutions... ???

I can neither confirm or deny that

irish2 · 25-01-2011, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colinl

It's not only some cars, but e10 is not well liked in the marine, motorcycle, or OPE industries. Most cars that use it will see an increase in fuel consumption and a decrease in power (it has less calorific value than petrol). The cost of the fuel should offset the extra usage though. It isn't till we get some high percentages of ethanol like the e85 that the higher octane allows higher compression ratio's or more boost.

I think its big advantage is political. It is something we can produce here in Australia rather than buy from overseas. There are definitely some positives with its use, there are also quite a few negatives.

It is hygroscopic and will suck the moisture out of the air. Apart from the moisture build up, the water will also bond with the ethanol and strip it from the petrol. In fuels that use ethanol as an octane booster this will naturally cause the octane rating to fall.

It is more likely to cause vapour lock problems.

Deteriorates some plastics, rubbers, fibreglass, alloy components.

Takes more energy to produce than it releases.

Is dirtier to produce than petrol (although petrol will get harder to produce).

Competes with food source crops (although in Australia we are using mainly waste product for its manufacture).

When used with petrol it transports some of the nasties in petrol like, benzine and MTBE into our biosphere much faster and allows them to stay much longer.

Great summation right there!

Ethanol is not allowed for use in any aircraft either. If that isn't a big enough warning that ethanol may damage your motor, I don't know what is!

vibe_xr6 · 25-01-2011, 11:54 PM

well here, there is no more normal unleaded, just that stupid bio ****, is it the same there?

colinl · 26-01-2011, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazxr6mk2

well here, there is no more normal unleaded, just that stupid bio ****, is it the same there?

Where is here?

I had a guy ask me if he could buy unleaded in QLD yesterday while I was filling up. He was from NSW I think. He had an older model car and didn't know if unleaded would be OK. I believe that straight unleaded is sold in QLD, but it is getting hard to find. I always use BP Ultimate in my bike to avoid the ethanol.

my_gxl · 26-01-2011, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotty85

E10 is magic on my XR8. More power, cleaner burn & a VERY minute change in economy. Plus its cheaper. A godsend to say the least.

I assume you use the PULP 98 E10?

With the current stock tune I have I agree.

However I have spoken to the guy at Craig Lowndes Racing, and he says that the E85 really chews their injectors.

jpd80 · 26-01-2011, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irish2

In case you have been living under a rock whilst the ethanol debate has existed, certain cars CAN NOT use any ethanol blend without significant modification. Especially anything with a carby that is not prepped for alcohol.

I draw a line at 1988 for the 99th percentile of the motor vehicle population and
I proposed E5 because those older EFI vehicles are able to use it without issue.
Going back 23 years, the average life expectancy of a vehicle is approx. 17 years
and the oldest common vehicle on the roads today are EB-ED and VP-VR.

Cars older than 1998 are in the hands of enthusiasts who can make their own
decisions on modifications, we're all adults here and our hobby costs money.

Lukeyson · 26-01-2011, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotty85

E10 is magic on my XR8. More power, cleaner burn & a VERY minute change in economy. Plus its cheaper. A godsend to say the least.

Very interesting there, i tried a few tanks of E10 in my XR8 and there was no decline in power but i am finding a big change to the economy, i get about 90-100kms less out of a tank.

**ebxr8240** · 26-01-2011, 09:00 AM

Aircraft have always had strict fuel usage...
I guess the colder conditions, extreme temp variation and being hygroscopic would be one major reason...
Water in fuel will freeze...
We have to find an alternative !! We can't have our heads in the sand ..
I'm sure engineers etc can work there way around issues..
It's the older cars which get left behind...
Maybe they want it that way??
Seems adding a minute amount of oil slows corrosion ??