Polyair Airbags - AU wagon

[Cam]

Greetings all,

As the title suggests.. For those who don't know I am 1/4 of the way through an around OZ trip with my AU wagon. The problem is the rear of the old girl is dragging her bum on the ground with the 300-odd-kg in the back of the car, and the 150kg of ball weight..

I've priced up some heavy duty leaf springs, and after picking myself up off the floor (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FORD-FALC...bbbd3ef&_uhb=1) I started looking at bags..

I'm looking at this kit, any past experiences, advice or alternatives would be great!
http://bodeos4u.com.au/falcon-au-bf-wagon.html

Cheers
Cam

[MrEL]

Im thinking along the same lines for my AU ute.
I was hoping to be able to just find some air shocks but they seem to be a thing of the past now.

[TheInterceptor]

Not sure about airbags mate but for what its worth, my dads BFII had a 6 leaf leafpack and it takes a bit to sag! I can tell you for sure how much it sags with a van on the back and assorted touring items (about 180kg ballweight) in 2 weeks time.. Pedders quoted me $500 if you drive in to get more leafs added ($250 if you remove them yourself and give it to them to add more leafs). $500 is decent airbag money though...All the best with it!

Im amazed you have 300kgs plug a van on there, your wagon would be riding on bumpstops the factory leafs are that soft! Ill be going across Aus at the months end and ill be needing some suspension upgrades too!

[Cam]

Ya, it is riding the bumpstops with a full tank of fuel.. 250 for an extra leaf doesn't seem too bad, would just need to replace the shocks too after the hammering they have had...

I really didn't think it'd go from 4wd height to dragging its bum! Thanks for the advice, I gotta pass a pedders tomorrow, will pop in. (can't believe I am actually gonna walk into a pedders store!)

[TheInterceptor]

Ah thats terrible! Must drive like a pig.
Yeah it seems allright, ill be doing the same sometime when i find the time and somewhere to leave my car on jack stands haha. Hoping they'll add more than one leaf aswell for the money!

No worries mate, yes haha, but you'd think they cant stuff up adding leafs to a pack!!

[bartsau]

Kinda a different setup but I have an extra leaf added along with having lowered my wagon a fair chunk. I have previously towed a 25ft Surf boat with all associated gear and 5 people plus there luggage and honestly don't believe it sagged much more at all.

I have always taken the wagon to Pedders and have always had an great run with them (although I believe this is probably due to the actual person being helpful above and beyond what is expected)

[madwag]

How about something like these?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/IRONMAN-L...ht_4676wt_1165

[Bushbasher]

What's wrong with good old Monroe Gas Risers?

[mik]

that`s what i would have gone for also bushy,
if there is room to fit the plain old air shockers on your model Cam, much less mucking around i think,
if you want to get really snazzy you can buy an aftermarket compressor for the cabin and adjust the poundage/height from in the cab,.................. or just take the shockers and have the Schroeder valve and lines fitted near the number plate or some place of your liking and pump them up at the servo or have a $ 20.00 mini compressor in the boot.
the spring packs you listed look very expensive to me, if you look in the phone book and find a spring maker that does car and truck springs ,carols, spicers, a 4wd place perhaps, usually they can add a leaf and reset your springs for i would think for much less than the ebay ones, or they could make/supply a helper spring that clips over yours(over load spring).

[TheInterceptor]

I advise against resetting the leafs, they will sag over time..although in the OP's case, the caravan will make it sag back to stock within a day. Waste of money. The one in the ebay link are likley custom fabricated leafs not just reset standard ones. But still, the price is just flamin insane!

Now that mik mentions it, Ironman make a helper leaf that bolts onto the top of the existing leafpacks that apparently work allright, could be worth a look at. They normally cost up to $130 dependin where you look and what sales are on.

[Cam]

Thanks for the replies, I didn't think gas risers were available for wagons! Will have another look. I had seen those helper leafs on eBay, but with "up to" 20% increase i wasn't sure theyd raise the car enough, whereas the bags are more designed to keep the standard height. I'm hoping the peddlers extra leaf solution might be a little better then that DIY option..
My mum tows a 1800kg van with her BA XR and although I realize not comparable to my leafs, mums car sits higher in the back with them fully inflated and the van attached.. If I could be remotely close to level, I'd be happy..

It's late now,so will do some digging in the AM! Thanks for the replies, keep em coming!

[Sox]

You have a few options.

The best option IMO is to have new heavy duty springs fitted, 6 leaves is usually ideal for the wagons. Standard height will be fine.

Next is to have the springs reset and add 2 leaves. IME reset leaves have never sagged.

The iron man helpers (post #7) are also quite good, and I still use mine on the odd occasion.

I've also used the red poly bags mentioned above, but I didn't like them at all. They were way to hard when not used. Even with the lowest recommended pressure. They also didn't lift anywhere near as hell as hoped.
The big black bags are supposed to be much better, but I have no experience with them.

All of the above will help with the load carried in the car. To tackle the ball weight of the van, you need a weight distribution hitch.

http://caravansplus.com.au/catalog/i...th=51_1001_435

These are fantastic as they not only lift the rear of the car, they also restore the weight back to the front wheels.

In a nutshell, for a quick fix, I would grab the iron man helpers -
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/IRONMAN-L...ht_4676wt_1165

And one of these -
http://caravansplus.com.au/catalog/p...roducts_id=163

You should be pretty set.

Lastly, I just had a quick look at the pictures on the facebook page, the van is fairly smallish, I'd look at trying to reduce the ballweight. In OZ we work on 10% ballweight, in Europe they work on 5%.
I messed with my van a lot and have it down to around 6% and the difference in stability is significant.
I was able to transfer a substantial amount of weight to the axle area, which is best.
3 of the major things were the battery location, spare wheel, and reduction from 9kg gas bottle to 4kg.

[MNM96]

I have Polyair Airbags fitted to my 4X4 Triton to help carry the loads. Can swing a tonne and a half easy at 8psi. Run them flat nearly when I don't need them, remains comfy.

Only issue in 3 years was the airhose to the right bag touched the muffler and melted, replaced in 10 minutes, ensuring it was routed better.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by MNM96

I have Polyair Airbags fitted to my 4X4 Triton to help carry the loads. Can swing a tonne and a half easy at 8psi. Run them flat nearly when I don't need them, remains comfy.

Only issue in 3 years was the airhose to the right bag touched the muffler and melted, replaced in 10 minutes, ensuring it was routed better.

Did you have the red bag with a coil wrapped around or the much bigger black rubber bags?

[MNM96]

Originally Posted by Sox

Did you have the red bag with a coil wrapped around or the much bigger black rubber bags?

Just the red ones.

[Cam]

Thanks for the replies guys, much appreciated! Sox, your right, a WDH would be ideal to sort out the ball weight. With a 40kg 150ah battery up front, and 2 x 9kg gas bottles if adds a LOT of Ball weight. Sadly due the design of the van there's nowhere else to store the battery, however I could relocate the gas bottles when traveling. If I wasn't free camping for weeks at a time I'd reduce my gas load for sure. Since Last checking my ball weight I have changed the way I pack the van and it has made a little difference, might wack it on the scales to see how much difference. I'd guess I've probably taken a good 45kg from the front of the van (I used to store my tools there, and my portable panel, it now travels under my bed, just behind the axle..) which should have me closer to the 10% you mentioned. The van is only 1350kg when packed, obviously the battery is the main cause of all my dramas. Sadly my budget didn't stretch to a lithium setup!

I'm going to pop into a few suspension places this morning and see what they say, but a WDH and the helpers should definitely keep the bum off the ground!

[Cam]

Oops, double post, damn iPad...

[mik]

years ago a mate and i set about lifting the back of his el wagon which was a little low in the back for what he required, he acquired some old springs of another falcon for nothing, we dismantled them, we bought some new centre bolts(locating bolt that keeps the leafs centred) and fitted an extra long leaf in each of the el springs, we cut the spring eyes off the spare long leafs and fitted them, it worked like a charm, probably added an inch and a half to the ride height and was a tad stiffer, i can`t recall whether we had enough thread or had to
replace the u bolts, anyway
i`m a big fan of leaf springs , very versatile and reliable, and cheap to alter.
you can also have the soft ride option, at normal ride height the main spring pack does`nt come in contact with another load bearing leaf until a set point.
good luck with your limo Cam.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by MNM96

Just the red ones.

Weird eh, mine didn't work as described at all.

Originally Posted by Cam

Thanks for the replies guys, much appreciated! Sox, your right, a WDH would be ideal to sort out the ball weight. With a 40kg 150ah battery up front, and 2 x 9kg gas bottles if adds a LOT of Ball weight.
Sadly due the design of the van there's nowhere else to store the battery,

I put mine under one of the seats inside. It's in a standard battery box vented to the outside with a plastic pipe and external vent.

however I could relocate the gas bottles when traveling.

Yep, that would help a lot, they're ~20kg when full.

If I wasn't free camping for weeks at a time I'd reduce my gas load for sure.

Do you have a 3 way absorption fridge or 2 way compressor fridge?
I ditched the 3 way a few years ago and now have a compressor, use only 1kg of gas per week for cooking only, so a 4kg bottle does me for a month, and I carry a spare.

We predominantly free camp, actually going 1/2 way round the block for 2 months starting August. We need to talk...

Since Last checking my ball weight I have changed the way I pack the van and it has made a little difference, might wack it on the scales to see how much difference. I'd guess I've probably taken a good 45kg from the front of the van (I used to store my tools there, and my portable panel, it now travels under my bed, just behind the axle..) which should have me closer to the 10% you mentioned.

As I said, less works even better.
I gradually moved things over time and was surprised at the difference it makes.
My van is ~1300kg dripping wet, and has ~80kg ball weight.
I only need to 2 bars on the smaller WDH and it's rock solid with no sag.

The van is only 1350kg when packed, obviously the battery is the main cause of all my dramas.

Yeh, 150kg for a 1350kg van is high.

Sadly my budget didn't stretch to a lithium setup!

I'm going to pop into a few suspension places this morning and see what they say, but a WDH and the helpers should definitely keep the bum off the ground!

For sure.
But work on that ball weight too.

[TheInterceptor]

Originally Posted by Sox

You have a few options.

The best option IMO is to have new heavy duty springs fitted, 6 leaves is usually ideal for the wagons. Standard height will be fine.

Next is to have the springs reset and add 2 leaves. IME reset leaves have never sagged.
.

Gday Sox, youve never had reset springs sag? Dads BFII wagon had a 6 leafpack installed and reset higher and its the same height as my AUII with stock springs (before it sagged).

Where did you get yours done and all?! Id like to get mine reset along with two more leafs if i know it wont droop back to factory height. Cheers!

(Sorry for the slight threadjack!)

[Sox]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

Gday Sox, youve never had reset springs sag? Dads BFII wagon had a 6 leafpack installed and reset higher and its the same height as my AUII with stock springs (before it sagged).

Where did you get yours done and all?! Id like to get mine reset along with two more leafs if i know it wont droop back to factory height. Cheers!

(Sorry for the slight threadjack!)

I've probably had 1/2 dozen sets of leaves reset over the last 25 years.
All done by this crowd (at the Sydney branch) -
http://www.carrolls.com.au/

[FTE217]

Sox has good points from experience and I'll pass on mine...
Re set leafs will sag in time - face it your re newing your already tired fatigue leafs but this is reduced by incl a New extra leaf or 2 or even 3 for some applications, best fix imo new leaf pack matched up with a good HD shock.
Poly Airs - well every product has its negatives/positives, easy fitment is their plus and used correctly do the job, lines yes at times can get damaged/fouled easy fix.
Yep can be rough ride when unladen, most times due to too much air left in the bag.
Air shocks/gas risers - dying product due to IRS being the modern day rear end, again easy fit but can let you down, people forget to reduce air pressure once unladen, therefore piston working too high in its stroke, can top out cause leaks, side loads can cause top seal issues.

[Cam]

Originally Posted by Sox

Weird eh, mine didn't work as described at all.

I put mine under one of the seats inside. It's in a standard battery box vented to the outside with a plastic pipe and external vent.

Yeah, the seats are at the front of my van which is where my battery is. If I had of bought 3 smaller batteries and a BMS I probably could've relocated them..

Do you have a 3 way absorption fridge or 2 way compressor fridge?
I ditched the 3 way a few years ago and now have a compressor, use only 1kg of gas per week for cooking only, so a 4kg bottle does me for a month, and I carry a spare.

Just a 2 way, when on the road i power it via my inverter, the rest of the time it's on gas. I get nearly 4 weeks from a 9kg gas bottle with the fridge on 24/7 as well as all my cooking..

We predominantly free camp, actually going 1/2 way round the block for 2 months starting August. We need to talk...

Sounds good! Found some killer places to stay, check out Ozcamps.net if you haven't already, very helpful for the nomader! There are others out there, but ozcamps is updated by its users, ensuring its always up to date.

[Cam]

Went and and spoke to peddlers, they want $385 supply only and 570 fitted for an extra leaf and a reset. Then another hundred if the bushes need doing...

Went to another shop, he agreed extra springs are the best bet. Quoted me 350 supply only, or 450 fitted! And another 50 for bushes if needed. He's also happy to install shocks if I supply my own..

Looks like a goer! Just gotta put a new gearbox first! Always a fun 1 man job :P

[mik]

not a lot of fun doing auto`s on your own, maybe someone on the forum in your area might lend a hand and be a ta(trade assistant) for a couple of hours, what area are you in?

[Sox]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Re set leafs will sag in time - face it your re newing your already tired fatigue leafs but this is reduced by incl a New extra leaf or 2 or even 3 for some applications

I've always had at least 1 extra leaf added, sometimes 2, so that goes some way to explaining why I haven't had sagging problems.

best fix imo new leaf pack matched up with a good HD shock.

Agreed.

Poly Airs - well every product has its negatives/positives, easy fitment is their plus and used correctly do the job, lines yes at times can get damaged/fouled easy fix.
Yep can be rough ride when unladen, most times due to too much air left in the bag.

I even ran mine with no air, still too firm.
This was on an XH ute, maybe I'll re-visit them on the AU someday.

Air shocks/gas risers - dying product due to IRS being the modern day rear end, again easy fit but can let you down, people forget to reduce air pressure once unladen, therefore piston working too high in its stroke, can top out cause leaks, side loads can cause top seal issues.

I've had air shocks too, they were actually ok, similar lift to the bags I had, but without the firm ride when let down.

I'm actually surprised no one does make an air shock for IRS rear ends. There's no reason why they can't work.
I know my AU IRS sags with a couple bags of dog food!

Originally Posted by Cam

Sounds good! Found some killer places to stay, check out Ozcamps.net if you haven't already, very helpful for the nomader! There are others out there, but ozcamps is updated by its users, ensuring its always up to date.

Yeh have seen it, we also use the book, Camps OZ wide.
Have you done the Tanami road? We're thinking about it, but not sure how much fuel we need to carry.

Originally Posted by Cam

Went and and spoke to peddlers, they want $385 supply only and 570 fitted for an extra leaf and a reset. Then another hundred if the bushes need doing...

Went to another shop, he agreed extra springs are the best bet. Quoted me 350 supply only, or 450 fitted! And another 50 for bushes if needed. He's also happy to install shocks if I supply my own..

Like someone else here mentioned, you may be able to simply throw in another leaf or 2 in your current pack without re-setting.
This would save you some $$.
The other option is ute springs from a wrecker. Not 1 tonne units, but the ~700kg ones, they usually have 3 lightweight springs and 1 firm one.
Probably get these for less than $100 from a wrecker.

[XP6]

Pump up shocks will be the cheapest option as they are the cheapest to buy and the easiest/least labor to fit.

I've had polyair's in a BA ute they didnt noticeably increase the hardness... but it was a different situation this thing would hit the bump stops with 1 carton of **** in the tray

[Cam]

Originally Posted by mik

not a lot of fun doing auto`s on your own, maybe someone on the forum in your area might lend a hand and be a ta(trade assistant) for a couple of hours, what area are you in?

Hahaha oh I know! Last time I did it my myself I used a trolley jack and a skateboard,can it was fun! /end sarcasm

I'm in Sydney ATM, in Rooty Hill. I'm staying with a mate at the moment but he's not really capable of lifting, I guess if he just lends an extra set of hands I'll do the lifting, should be ok. I've lifted a box in and out of a ford probe 3 times in 2 days by myself, I should be getting used to it!

Sox, I have the book too, I did have some issues with some roads that had deteriorated compared to what the book said, and another camp had been closed due to the small minority what wreck it..

Nah I am not doing NT or WA, there's too much driving with a 4 year old, and not enough for him to see! I know my old girl did it, I'll ask how much fuel she carried (BA Xr, so reasonable comparable to my economy..)

[TheInterceptor]

Originally Posted by Sox

I've probably had 1/2 dozen sets of leaves reset over the last 25 years.
All done by this crowd (at the Sydney branch) -
http://www.carrolls.com.au/

Gee, well thats impresive then.
Cheers for the link I see theyre in Smithfield..if they can fit extra leafs and reset all in one day then theyll have my business!


Cam, i can come give you a hand if you need it, but i work 6 days a week so i can only be in Rooty Hill maybe by 7 - 7:30pm, about 6pm ish maybe on Sundays.

[FTE217]

Say GDay to Juilah LOL.......