Would interchangeability been the answer?

[MrEL]

Well with the demise of Ford and things not looking real rosey for the rest of the car industry in Australia , at my work (as I guess with many others work) there has been a few topics of conversation over the esky at lunch about it all.
Everyone has a belief as to why what has happened has happened , be it poor marketing , excessive wages , imports being better value for money blah blah blah. Something bought up the other day was very interesting and I haven't seen it argued about here so I thought Id chuck it out there.
With Australia being such a small market in the grand scheme of things should both Ford and Holden looked ahead , got in bed with each other and set their new models up with a lot of parts interchangeability between models?
This way they could of shared development and setup costs , 3rd party providers could of supplied parts cheaper due to only one lot of tooling and selling more volume and the savings would of even flowed on to the consumer later in life with spare parts.

Think of these examples.
The twin cam six of Ford. Top motor they spent a lot of money on to develop and get it to pass emission standard. Imagine the barra motor and ZF 6 speed , running Holden control software with AFM , E flex compatability etc. Share the development costs and run the same driveline in both the Commodore and Falcon.

Disc rotors. Really why is there a requirement to have 2 different disc rotors for 2 different cars that are nearly the same weight and same braking setup? Surely when the new models were being developed the braking systems could of been rejigged to have a common disc between the 2.

Wheels. In a base model , that has a steel wheel that gets covered by a hubcap , lets face it a 16x7 wheel is a 16x7 wheel. Is it really such a burning issue to have a different stud pattern and offset between 2 different cars?

Wheel nuts and studs. Why do Ford and Holden have a different wheel nut and stud to each other? I really don't see how that makes the cars different in their own right.

Washer bottles and Coolant tanks. They both hold fluid and pump it out. The car body is being developed anyway. How hard would it be to redesign the mounts and pressing for the engine bay to accept a common item?

There are literally 1000's of parts that with some foresight and thinking could of been developed as an interchangeable part and it would of saved millions of dollars for both companies.
Obviously the V8's etc would remain their own hero motor. People who want one would pay for it. But for the biggest buyer of vehicles being fleets , and mums and dads that are only interested in running costs , reliability , safety and price , interchangeable parts wouldn't affect them at all.
They would still be buying a Commodore or Falcon , it would just have some parts from the other company in it.

The money saved would be phoenominal. Not just in cost redection due to buying in quantity and development costs but think of ADR and reliability testing. If Holden did the ADR testing on a wheel and could supply the results to Ford Ford would not have to retest it as an example.

The money saved could be passed back to the consumer in either dropping a couple of grand off the price of the car or fitting Bluetooth , satnav eg as standard features. Stuff the buyers want!

All the suppliers to both Ford and Holden would of saved a fortune with only having to setup and test 1 lot of tooling , storage areas etc which would of given them some breathing space to lower prices a bit and still be more profitable , keeping more Australians in work.

If you remember back to the days when the VN Commodore come out and the wheel brace had a pivoting head and the jack had a wheel nut on it so you used the wheel brace as the jack handle. It was a pain to use , but Holden did it as by not supplying a separate jack handle they saved 1.5c per car.
Think of that saving over a bigger scale on the model life of a car. If they could cut $100 out of the cost of manufacturing a car by sharing costs on development and manufacture of parts the savings for both companies would be in the millions. It might of just been enough to keep manufacturing in Australia economically viable.....................................

At the end of the day , Australia is a very small , isolated market with some very very smart people working in it. Is there a factual reason why stuff like my idea above hasn't happened? Is it 2 companies refusing to talk to each other , is it totally unworkable or is it just so blatently obvious that it was overlooked?

[Wretched]

It is an idea but I think the wrong way.
Both Ford and Holden are a small arm of large organisations, global organisations.
Why Ford and Holden (well they have now with VF) could not tap into the resources and parts bin from other markets astounds me.
Why could Ford not acquire the COMMS and Electronics BUS from their US or EU cars to use in the Falcon and then integrate much of the technology seen there into the Falcon?
It need not stop there either, there are copious amounts of components that can be interchanged, how many makes do this? I don't know many that don't. VAG do it with all their brands even the prestige ones.
It could have cut R&D costs of Falcon by a fair amount without compromising on value.

[GQ_Smooth]

If both companies were Australian owned entities, this would be possible, With both being American owned, I cannot see their bosses allowing this to happen just to keep factories open outside the US.

[Road_Warrior]

Electronics aren't really the big ticket items in vehicle development. As it stands the Falcon and Territory use a lot of corporate parts, just that much of it is stuff you can't see. The Territory diesel is a classic example, using a corporate engine, trans, ECU and some wiring. The 2014 Falcon - if it gets here - will make greater use of the Ford global parts supply chain than any locally made Ford ever before it, but it's a moot point now.

The 2015 Mustang will demonstrate that even using the "tech" or should I say, expensive modules of a donor car (in this case front suspension) is not enough to save one vehicle line over another. The problem for Ford Australia has always been the huge overall R&D costs for Falcon and Territory that were unable to be recouped from a domestic market, that was rapidly changing. Interchangeability of systems and parts with another car would have just meant a stay of execution, rather than a pardon.

[MrEL]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Electronics aren't really the big ticket items in vehicle development. As it stands the Falcon and Territory use a lot of corporate parts, just that much of it is stuff you can't see. The Territory diesel is a classic example, using a corporate engine, trans, ECU and some wiring. The 2014 Falcon - if it gets here - will make greater use of the Ford global parts supply chain than any locally made Ford ever before it, but it's a moot point now.

The 2015 Mustang will demonstrate that even using the "tech" or should I say, expensive modules of a donor car (in this case front suspension) is not enough to save one vehicle line over another. The problem for Ford Australia has always been the huge overall R&D costs for Falcon and Territory that were unable to be recouped from a domestic market, that was rapidly changing. Interchangeability of systems and parts with another car would have just meant a stay of execution, rather than a pardon.

We are misunderstanding each other here I think.
I was actually talking about Ford and Holden sharing parts with each other , not just across their respective families.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Electronics aren't really the big ticket items in vehicle development. .

i would have thought it would be a major component now, adding all those airbags and computers into the main loom, and it's just getting more complex and advanced.

[Brazen]

I think some good old badge engineering would do wonders for volume. You might have minor changes or might be like the BT50 and Ranger.

Holden instead of importing the Malibu from Korea should of used the Aussie built Camry with a new front and rear fascia as a modern day Apollo.

The Territory with a a new front end and steering wheel could also been sold as a Toyota - especially with the Kluger not having a diesel.

Building more vehicles across brands could be the necessary way to deal with such a highly fragmented market.


Even imported brands could take some and add their own flavour. Honda could have a VF Sportwagon with a slight lift kit, sporty alloys and wheel arch cladding to sell as their own sporty crossover wagon.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

i would have thought it would be a major component now, adding all those airbags and computers into the main loom, and it's just getting more complex and advanced.

Not really, modern CAN BUS and LIN BUS systems support all manner of these systems by default anyway

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Electronics aren't really the big ticket items in vehicle development. As it stands the Falcon and Territory use a lot of corporate parts, just that much of it is stuff you can't see. The Territory diesel is a classic example, using a corporate engine, trans, ECU and some wiring. The 2014 Falcon - if it gets here - will make greater use of the Ford global parts supply chain than any locally made Ford ever before it, but it's a moot point now.

The 2015 Mustang will demonstrate that even using the "tech" or should I say, expensive modules of a donor car (in this case front suspension) is not enough to save one vehicle line over another. The problem for Ford Australia has always been the huge overall R&D costs for Falcon and Territory that were unable to be recouped from a domestic market, that was rapidly changing. Interchangeability of systems and parts with another car would have just meant a stay of execution, rather than a pardon.

Anyone know why Ford Aus went to all that effort to completely rewire the FG Falcon with the MK2 release? Was it a desperate attempt for an export version to the USA, or did Ford USA do a complete change of PCM hardware/software version at that time, requiring all cars to use it ("one ford" strategy?).

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Anyone know why Ford Aus went to all that effort to completely rewire the FG Falcon with the MK2 release? Was it a desperate attempt for an export version to the USA, or did Ford USA do a complete change of PCM hardware/software version at that time, requiring all cars to use it ("one ford" strategy?).

It wasn't a complete rewire. But addition of wires and some connector changes. The main bits changed were in the dash. The big changes were for ecoboost and eco lpi on Falcon.

[2011G6E]

Interesting idea!

However, seeing as how the companies here aren't actually "Australian" companies, the parent companies would never allow it.

If they were fully independent Australian owned companies, they could indeed accept reality and join forces to keep making something here as a joint venture. However, they'd have to also accept reality of what the buying public wants...and that isn't big cars anymore. Possibly a mid sized SUV would be more popular...and probably would be...using the best from each maker.

But it won't happen. Can't happen.

[mik]

good idea, but the problem is cheap imports imo, the importers would probably drop the price even further(they can probably afford to), and i suspect the falcadore would be seen by many of the tribes as a mongrel and still not buy it.

[tweeked]

Be as popular as a Corsair............

[ebv8]

i'd love this to happen to keep them both here
holden can rebadge a territory and get rid of the craptiva
ford can rebadge the cruz (chuck in a 2l ecoboost) and have a combined falcon/commodore sedan, wagon,ute
all with new sheetmetal though so they are not exactly the same and their own engines

lots of older cars needed an australian component to be sold here (maybe less tax) I had a KE70 corolla with a holden trimatic auto behind the 1.3l 4cyl

[Ducati888]

Lots of parts Holden, Ford and Toyota use are from common suppliers. That is the "components" industry we have heard so much about, and the ones that will close when the assembly plants close.

There is a large percentage of parts that are not manufactured by the auto maker themselves, but by third party components suppliers. Eg, glass, door handles, wipers, wheels, bumpers, etc....

So in a way, what you have proposed already happens.

[blk6t]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

Lots of parts Holden, Ford and Toyota use are from common suppliers. That is the "components" industry we have heard so much about, and the ones that will close when the assembly plants close.

There is a large percentage of parts that are not manufactured by the auto maker themselves, but by third party components suppliers. Eg, glass, door handles, wipers, wheels, bumpers, etc....

So in a way, what you have proposed already happens.

Very true which is the hidden back bone of the automotive industry.

But I think what the OP is saying is for Holden and Ford to do what Subaru and Toyota did for example with the 86/BRZ and to have created a common RWD sedan platform.

But as others have noted, this would not have happened here regardless. Maybe GM and Ford will one day work together to create a platform for the Mustang and Camaro...

[Ducati888]

Ain't gonna happen. They are rival car makers, whereas Toyota owns some of Subaru.

It would be like BMW teaming up with Mercedes Benz. Won't happen.

The only partnerships we are likely to see are ones where the principals are connected, such as Ford/Mazda, Nissan/Renault, Toyota/Subaru/Yamaha, etc....but of course we already see results of those partnerships, such as the BRZ, and the common platforms for Mazdas and Fords. Problem is that none are made in Australia.

[MrEL]

Nope only a few people here seem to have a grasp on the idea Im talking about and the rest are running on in a stack of different directions.

Each company would still build their own Falcon and Commodore. They wouldn't share a platform at all. There would be no rebadging.

Im talking about componants. Example being both companies use the one type of steel wheel in the same offset and stud pattern.
Same brake rotors.
Share a motor , gearbox and management system.
Share washer bottles , coolant bottles etc.
Share seat belts.
There are many many other parts that could be interchanged between the 2. Classic example is the E series and AU Falcon heater tap. They are the same as a commodore one , but the diaphragm to accutate it is on the other side. So there is 2 lots of design costs and 2 lots of tooling and manufacturing costs to come out with basically the same item.

None of this would change each vehicle from being a Holden Commodore or a Ford Falcon. But it would lower development and manufacturing costs if there was only 1 part being made and the costs shared by 2 companies.

Im well aware of the 3rd party suppliers. My idea would be them making one part that fit both car lines instead of 2 different parts and their setup costs.

[tweeked]

I get it, but you are talking about cars having to share long lead development, model cycles, plus most of the parts mentioned are shared between other models out of their respective stables anyway.

Great example is the BA ute taillights, off the Ford US truck parts. Why the complexity of fitting in with separate models from another brand (as distinct to platform sharing - like the Laser/323) when you already have an in house parts bin?

If it could work, it would have happened.

[DanielXR8]

I remember my EL had map lights that had both Ford and Holden part numbers molded inside it.

[MrEL]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

I remember my EL had map lights that had both Ford and Holden part numbers molded inside it.

Yep that they did.
I honestly don't see why it couldn't of been pushed further. Yes it would of took work but I believe the results would of been worthwhile.

[2011G6E]

As far back as the eighties when we owned a VK Calais and a neighbour that I worked with owned an XF Fairmont Ghia, there were common parts. I remember noticing the overhead light was identical, and he noticed other bits and pieces...I think the glovebox latch was the same as well.

The problem with a Falcon/Commodore mix up is that they're both too big for todays markets. Neither is selling well...all the top sellers are smaller cars and nowadays, and if people want something bigger, they go for an SUV or a twin cab ute.