2010 TDCI Powershift problems

Bobthekelpy · 07-01-2015, 03:58 PM

Hi All,

First post, so to get started, hi.

I have a 2010 TDCI Powershift Mondeo wagon and have started experiencing some intermittent issues. I have only owned it for about 7 months, it has 135,000k's. Oil (transmission) was changed at 120,000k service by Ford.

So far it seems to be the same three fault codes popping up. One for an input/output sensor on the Powershift (Ford quoting nearly $3k to fix). Second one is the active grille shutter. Thirdly the ECM.

Now, the symptoms are under normal driving, at complete random times it will highlight the information symbol on the dash and Check Transmission will appear in text.

The car will then over rev, and then only select odd gears for eg: 5th then 3rd etc. If I turn the car off and re start it the problem resets and it will drive normally again.

I am reluctant to just throw money at it hoping we change the right parts, so am waiting for it to happen again so Ford can read the fault codes whilst "live" without any ignition cycles.

I had a look through the grille and noticed it does appear to have one broken vain on the shutter, so that might explain that fault code. Ford seemed concerned about this, but, I can't see it contributing to the shifting problems?? No overheating issues with it at all.

So for the collective, any suggestions at to what might be going on? Where the problem is? Anyone experienced similar?

Deo · 08-01-2015, 08:05 AM

Firstly the active grille - I doubt you will experience much difficulty in practice, so I wouldn't be concerned with it now.
Secondly, what is the exact code you are seeing regarding the ECM? (to Ford its the PCM)

The 120k Ford service must have been before you bought it. You can't be truly 100% sure that the trans fluid actually did get changed, even if it was paid for

What do you know about the previous owner? Was the fluid changed at 60k?
You could get a mechanic you trust to check the condition (colour) of the fluid, although having done 15k since the change it probably won't be conclusive as to how new it is.

Out of interest, is this the 'facelift' model? ie is it MB or MC?

Bobthekelpy · 08-01-2015, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deo

Firstly the active grille - I doubt you will experience much difficulty in practice, so I wouldn't be concerned with it now.
Secondly, what is the exact code you are seeing regarding the ECM? (to Ford its the PCM)

The 120k Ford service must have been before you bought it. You can't be truly 100% sure that the trans fluid actually did get changed, even if it was paid for

What do you know about the previous owner? Was the fluid changed at 60k?
You could get a mechanic you trust to check the condition (colour) of the fluid, although having done 15k since the change it probably won't be conclusive as to how new it is.

Out of interest, is this the 'facelift' model? ie is it MB or MC?

Thanks for the reply Deo.

I am not sure of the fault code number, Ford themselves read it and referred to it as ECM..

Correct, the 120k service was completed just as I bought the car, from a Ford dealership (not the same one I have had look at the fault codes). I raised that with my local Ford dealership too, as I was suspect that the trans fluid had been done, they contacted the dealership I purchased it from and obtained a report from the 120k service, apparently it was completed. But, who knows.

I bought the car from a Dealership, I think the previous owner was RACV as a service/fleet car. The dealership I bought it from completed the 120k service as part of the purchase etc as it was due. The service book is up to date with no services missed, however I don't have receipts of what was done.

It is the MC, I think the build date is September 2010.

Deo · 08-01-2015, 02:09 PM

Hm I'm guessing you have moved interstate because you bought it from one Ford dealer but are having a different one look at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobthekelpy

I am not sure of the fault code number, Ford themselves read it and referred to it as ECM...

Could they have said TCM? You might like to buy a $20 OBD dongle and read them for yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobthekelpy

I am reluctant to just throw money at it hoping we change the right parts

The driving symptoms you described are caused by a falling input shaft sensor. So you wouldn't be throwing money randomly. But I would take it back to the place you bought it and try to make them fix it. And to be honest the dealer you are using now doesn't sound that hot.

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk 2

Binny · 08-01-2015, 09:16 PM

Sorry to hear about your problems.
To see the cost of that quote makes me thankful I shelled out for the extra MyFord factory warranty to 200k.
If you do have to get the sensor changed I assume it must be inside the transmission based on that cost. If it has one on each gear shaft it might be worth asking how much to get the other one done at the same time. Most of that cost is probably labour to pull the transmission out and pull it apart.
Hopefully you can get it sorted for cheaper.

Groomy · 26-02-2016, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobthekelpy

I have only owned it for about 7 months, it has 135,000k's. Oil (transmission) was changed at 120,000k service by Ford.

I've just been quoted $4500 for exactly the same problem, at exactly the same Km with an MC Wagon. Similarly owned it for less than a year...
I've had the "dropping into Neutral" problem only twice. But gear changes have been Intermittently rough, so I took it into Ford for my first ever dealer service.

They want to change some sort of Shaft sensor (which they say is actually causing the problems) and while they're at it, replace the Clutch pack, cause there's metal fragments in the oil...

$4500 is almost half the value of the vehicle! It's a tough pill to swallow!

Did you end up getting the job done Bobthekelpy?

SpoolMan · 26-02-2016, 09:05 PM

Big thread here on the PowerShift auto...
http://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11399507

Deo · 26-02-2016, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

Big thread here on the PowerShift auto...
http://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11399507

No that's a different gearbox that suffers from a far more widespread and harder to permanently fix problem.

Sent from my GTi-9305 using bloody Tapatalk

bundybear75 · 27-02-2016, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groomy

I've just been quoted $4500 for exactly the same problem, at exactly the same Km with an MC Wagon. Similarly owned it for less than a year...
I've had the "dropping into Neutral" problem only twice. But gear changes have been Intermittently rough, so I took it into Ford for my first ever dealer service.

They want to change some sort of Shaft sensor (which they say is actually causing the problems) and while they're at it, replace the Clutch pack, cause there's metal fragments in the oil...

$4500 is almost half the value of the vehicle! It's a tough pill to swallow!

Did you end up getting the job done Bobthekelpy?

Mine goes in on Monday to have the speed sensor replaced. Thank god its covered under the statutory warranty I got when I brought it. I had it 4 days and about 400km before the problems reared their head.

I had two quotes both around $2500 to remove transmission, strip down and replace sensor, refit box and fill with fresh oil. The sensor alone is over $500 plus $300 worth of fluid. I asked about the clutch pack and apparently they don't go near that part of the transmission when stripping it down.

Mines a 2012 tdci wagon (ex fleet) with 135k km on it.

Hopefully that sorts out all the problems as I brought this to commute in and have spent the last 3 weeks driving my uneconomical 4x4 ute I instead.

Groomy · 27-02-2016, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bundybear75

I had two quotes both around $2500 to remove transmission, strip down and replace sensor, refit box and fill with fresh oil. The sensor alone is over $500 plus $300 worth of fluid. I asked about the clutch pack and apparently they don't go near that part of the transmission when stripping it down.

Yeah, they're recommending replacing the clutch pack while they're in there cause there's likely damage to the installed unit thanks to the hard changes that the dodgy sensors have been making. It was intermittent and seemed to only really be on cold starts, so I just thought it was a "quirk" of these transmissions until it just dropped into Netural one day for a few seconds.
I'm guessing the clutch packs are worth a pretty penny, so your $2500 quote sounds about on the money of you weren't to do that part of the job.

Groomy · 28-02-2016, 12:06 AM

I'm seriously considering just doing it..
My alternative is to trade it, but I'm guessing I'll lose $3k in the trade. plus another $500 Stamp Duty. So, all of a sudden the new clutch is "only" an extra $1000 which seems far more palateable...
Is that just crazy maths?

manchu · 29-02-2016, 02:27 AM

I might have the same problem with my 2012 MC, 72,000km. A Transmission "limited function" warning message appeared yesterday. I stopped immediately and all seems fine after a restart.

The car was bought from a Mazda dealer, 2 weeks ago. Should I take back there or get someone else to check it out first? (Ford or my usual independent mechanic).

Do I need to address ASAP? Can I damage transmission if it happens and I'm not able to stop quickly?

Groomy · 29-02-2016, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchu

The car was bought from a Mazda dealer, 2 weeks ago. Should I take back there or get someone else to check it out first?

I think your statutory warranty requires that you take it to a mechanic of their choice. So I would take it back to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchu

Do I need to address ASAP? Can I damage transmission if it happens and I'm not able to stop quickly?

Definitely should be high on the priority list.

rondeo · 29-02-2016, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchu

I might have the same problem with my 2012 MC, 72,000km. A Transmission "limited function" warning message appeared yesterday. I stopped immediately and all seems fine after a restart.

The car was bought from a Mazda dealer, 2 weeks ago. Should I take back there or get someone else to check it out first? (Ford or my usual independent mechanic).

Do I need to address ASAP? Can I damage transmission if it happens and I'm not able to stop quickly?

In the case of a transmission Limp Home I gather there are many programs the TCM may adopt depending on the particulars. So you may find a gear or number of gears restricted. The point of that would be to allow you to continue as necessary to safety or workshop.

When the situation allows, remove the ignition key for 15s and try restarting, which may clear the fault.

The above info is from the pdf which was recently linked here in Mondeo section.

See if there's a fault code set. I don't get why codes are cleared by the car when they might be useful later? If you have Forscan on your phone and a BT adapter permanently plugged in you can access codes which are not permanently set? That's worked for me before.

manchu · 29-02-2016, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groomy

I think your statutory warranty requires that you take it to a mechanic of their choice. So I would take it back to them.

cheers. yes it will definitely be going back to them to fix. But was thinking it might be a good idea to get someone independent to verify first so mazda don't give me the run around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groomy

Definitely should be high on the priority list.

It is, but it'll take me a few days to get it booked in and looked at so worried whether I should be driving it or not.

Is it the sort of fault that presents itself regularly after the first time.

manchu · 29-02-2016, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rondeo

The above info is from the pdf which was recently linked here in Mondeo section.

Is this the thread and PDF link?

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11447964

http://ddl2.data.hu/get/0/7459943/powershift.pdf

Quote:

Originally Posted by rondeo

If you have Forscan on your phone and a BT adapter permanently plugged in you can access codes which are not permanently set?

I don't have any of that wizardry unfortunately.

So is this 'Transmission Function Limited' fault one that is logged? Will Mazda guys will see it when I take it in when all is working fine.

bundybear75 · 29-02-2016, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchu

Is it the sort of fault that presents itself regularly after the first time.

Mine played up about 500km of buying car. Had a couple of instances of neutral between gears. Then the "transmission limited function" warning and no drive at all. Turned car off then restarted and warning went away but CEL stayed on. Drove like a dog (limp mode) until Ford read and cleared fault code.

Drove fine after CEL reset but started getting neutral between gears more and more regularly. Have done approx 500km more since problems started.

Drove the 100km to work fine this morning (played up yesterday afternoon quite bad), just need to get it the 15km to the transmission specialist this afternoon to drop it off. Hopefully the problems will be sorted with a new sensor installed.

Groomy · 29-02-2016, 09:08 AM

Mine has had a Transmission fault once. Restart cleared it and it's never popped up again.
Stupidly I just wrote it off as a computer malfunction and didn't got it checked out until the next service months later.

manchu · 29-02-2016, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groomy

Mine has had a Transmission fault once. Restart cleared it and it's never popped up again.
Stupidly I just wrote it off as a computer malfunction and didn't got it checked out until the next service months later.

That's what I was thinking too. I'd been playing around with D,S and manual shifting just before and thought I may have just confused it a bit.

I take in now that's not likely/possible.

rondeo · 29-02-2016, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchu

Is this the thread and PDF link?

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11447964

http://ddl2.data.hu/get/0/7459943/powershift.pdf

I don't have any of that wizardry unfortunately.

So is this 'Transmission Function Limited' fault one that is logged? Will Mazda guys will see it when I take it in when all is working fine.

My experience (amateur) is that the car can go into limp mode as PCM or TCM decides, but not set a permanent diagnostic trouble code (DTC). The code may be cleared after restarting. In other words, no, your mechanic may not see a code. My car went into limp mode because the PCM decided there was a turbo system problem. I pulled over and looked at the code which was P2263. I then limped home for 30km, switched off and the code was cleared until next time two months later. This time I knew what to do, ie switch off and on. If I fixed the turbo issue time will tell (replaced turbo vacuum control solenoid). No transmission problems though.

Glitches do happen though. My wife's Mondy has had one EML relating to an oxy sensor which has not yet recurred since 04/15 (marvelous records!)

manchu · 29-02-2016, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rondeo

In other words, no, your mechanic may not see a code.

bugger. So I wonder what the dealer will say/do if there's no way to prove there's been a problem? Its booked in for Monday 7/3

Maybe I should get one of those BT adapters. where from?

Edit. anyone know about adapters/apps for iPhone. I can only find forscan lite, which seems like it need a OBD2 WIFI adapter. I guess that'll do?

rondeo · 29-02-2016, 12:20 PM

https://www.scantool.net/

Exactly, that's the problem as I see it.

No experience with i phone, just android.

manchu · 29-02-2016, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rondeo

https://www.scantool.net/

cheers. $155! from local distributor.

http://www.australianrobotics.com.au...wifi-scan-tool

I wonder if this $25 fella would do the job well enough.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ELM327-OB...AAAOSwBahVWcPH

Deo · 29-02-2016, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchu

I wonder if this $25 fella would do the job well enough.

Yes that'll be fine.

Sent from my GTi-9305 using bloody Tapatalk

Mondaveo · 29-02-2016, 01:01 PM

I also have had the "Transmission Limited Function" exactly once. Came about 1000km into my ownership of an 89,000km car (private sale). I think rondeo is on the money, there are several different limp-home programs the computer may select, and the TLF message is a catch-all alert for all of them. In my case I had no gears, until I shut down and restarted the car, after which it seemed to be fine again. TLF itself doesn't create a permanent fault code it seems, it's up to whatever the underlying cause is as to whether you get a code logged and it stays in limp mode. I took the car to Ford within days but they found no fault codes stored (they did find software updates for the PCM, TCM & ECU though).

Since then the car has behaved normally through a further 2000-ish km. The only issue is that sometimes it revs and lurches between first and second gear when in auto mode, like it momentarily selects the wrong gear or finds neutral. Not sure whether this represents an issue, or is part of normal operation.

My understanding of these gearboxes is, although they're marketed as an automatic, it's really a manual with computer-controlled shifts. It just happens the computer has also been programmed to shift automatically during driving for you. I'm inclined to think the computer is not infallible, and it can get confused and make a wrong shift at times. I've decided to try driving in manual mode for a while to see how it goes when I (partially) take over the decisions of when to shift for it. Also inclined to get an OBDII dongle to monitor in real time.

rondeo · 29-02-2016, 01:01 PM

[QUOTE=manchu;5603171]cheers. $155! from local distributor.

http://www.australianrobotics.com.au...wifi-scan-tool

I wonder if this $25 fella would do the job well enough.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ELM327-OB...AAAOSwBahVWcPH[/QU

Maybe. Any experience? Another thing to consider is if MS CAN is supported. Service at Ford will cost you more, just plugging in to IDS twice.

Another factor is whether or not you will have a flat battery after a few days. The scantool OBD MX has battery saving technology.

The OBDlink MX will not fit under the plastic dash trim though, you need a low profile right angle adapter and some plastic ground off. I forgot to mention that. This is really another thread though?

Groomy · 29-02-2016, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

Since then the car has behaved normally through a further 2000-ish km. The only issue is that sometimes it revs and lurches between first and second gear when in auto mode, like it momentarily selects the wrong gear or finds neutral. Not sure whether this represents an issue, or is part of normal operation.

This is/was exactly my situation...
except I also occasionally had hard shifts 2nd to 3rd as well.
Definitely worth checking that your shaft sensors are working correctly at your next service (or before)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

My understanding of these gearboxes is, although they're marketed as an automatic, it's really a manual with computer-controlled shifts.

Correct.. It's a manual gearbox with a robot pressing the clutch pedal(s) and moving the gear lever. There is no torque converter like a traditional automatic.
In my case, the robot is worse than a learner driver 1 out of every 10 drives.

rondeo · 29-02-2016, 01:24 PM

The DCT transmission was designed partly as an emission control device. Like DPF and EGR it may add to operation cost and reliability. We'll see to what extent? I don't miss my EF.

manchu · 01-03-2016, 12:53 PM

Aaarrrrgggghh!!. I'm in Powershift hell. Any advice on how to handle it would be greatly appreciated.

06/2012 TDCi Wagon, 72,000km, bought from dealer. 2 days ago I got "Trans Limited Function" warning, which corrected after re-start.

Service book is fully stamped, by either ford dealer (last at 30,000km) or RACV workshop. I just got off the phone to the RACV workshop who had some bad news:

- 60,000km service didn't include trans fluid change.
- The trans problem is known and was the reason the car was traded. Apparently it's been looked at twice but fault was never resolved.

I'm kicking myself for not either calling previous owner, or calling the workshop to check service record.

I'm concerned that the dealer will stuff around re-diagnosing, attempting cheap fixes, or claim there's no problem... dragging on the process, out of stat warranty period and leave me without a car for a long time.

It's obvious the trans needs significant work, so how can I make sure this happens without getting stuffed around?

I haven't mentioned todays findings to the dealer yet.

bundybear75 · 01-03-2016, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchu

Aaarrrrgggghh!!. I'm in Powershift hell. Any advice on how to handle it would be greatly appreciated.

06/2012 TDCi Wagon, 72,000km, bought from dealer. 2 days ago I got "Trans Limited Function" warning, which corrected after re-start.

Service book is fully stamped, by either ford dealer (last at 30,000km) or RACV workshop. I just got off the phone to the RACV workshop who had some bad news:

- 60,000km service didn't include trans fluid change.
- The trans problem is known and was the reason the car was traded. Apparently it's been looked at twice but fault was never resolved.

I'm kicking myself for not either calling previous owner, or calling the workshop to check service record.

I'm concerned that the dealer will stuff around re-diagnosing, attempting cheap fixes, or claim there's no problem... dragging on the process, out of stat warranty period and leave me without a car for a long time.

It's obvious the trans needs significant work, so how can I make sure this happens without getting stuffed around?

I haven't mentioned todays findings to the dealer yet.

As far as the dealer knows, you brought the car with the full service history as per the book.

Has it logged a fault code or is the check engine light on? Do you have a tame mechanic mate who could scan it and check? (don't reset code though)

A vehicle that age with that many km has to have a warranty, take it back to them and see what they say. If they start the muck around then start making suggestions. Give them a chance first.

Good luck with it.