What was predicted GTHO Phase 4 Lap Time at 1972 Bathurst...?

Sooty · 23-10-2018, 04:37 PM

Dear Gentlemen,

Just a quicky... With all of the recent Phase 4 frenzy that's been going on due to the auction, I thought it would be a good time to ask the following question:

What hypothetical lap time(s) were the Ford Factory Racing Team predicting for the Phase 4 at Bathurst in 1972?

I've never actually seen an answer to this one, either in print, or online in a forum.

Many Thanks in advance!
Sooty.

minheim · 23-10-2018, 05:41 PM

I think French managed 156mph in 1972 in his Bryan Byrt phase 3 with the globe alloy wheels that were destined for the phase 4. At a guess 160 or less I'd say

whitelion65 · 23-10-2018, 07:36 PM

Mid 2:03’s I heard!
Or does this belong in the P4 urban myths thread?

bathurst77 · 23-10-2018, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitelion65

Mid 2:03’s I heard!
Or does this belong in the P4 urban myths thread?

Rubbish! Pole 71 was a 2:38.9 in phase 3
The phase 4 was a incremental improvement... a few seconds if lucky...
2. 34 maybe?

whitelion65 · 23-10-2018, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bathurst77

Rubbish! Pole 71 was a 2:38.9 in phase 3
The phase 4 was a incremental improvement... a few seconds if lucky...
2. 34 maybe?

Oh that's right! "The chase" wasn't in place then, I'd say mid 2:02's....

Sorry man, couldn'y find the "tongue-in-cheek" emoticon!!

XA5800 · 23-10-2018, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by minheim

I think French managed 156mph in 1972 in his Bryan Byrt phase 3 with the globe alloy wheels that were destined for the phase 4. At a guess 160 or less I'd say

Not according to the news papers of the Day

Syndrome · 23-10-2018, 09:10 PM

Sub 2 minute lap.

Fordblue1000 · 23-10-2018, 11:29 PM

Interesting to note that the hq holden lap record is 2.46 seconds- with the chase. Not bad for an old red 202 3 speed. Shows how a good tyre and suspe sion set up is important.

Sent from my SM-G928I using Tapatalk

FTe342 · 24-10-2018, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Sub 2 minute lap.

Sure. A V8 Supercar time from a leaf spring suspension car on cheese cutters

cheap · 24-10-2018, 07:21 AM

1972 - Alan Moffat Phase 3 - qualified @ 2:38.5

1973 - John Goss XA Hardtop aka Phase 4 - qualified @ 2:33.5

Dr Terry · 24-10-2018, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheap

1972 - Alan Moffat Phase 3 - qualified @ 2:38.5

1973 - John Goss XA Hardtop aka Phase 4 - qualified @ 2:33.5

You could argue that the XA Hardtop had better aero than the XA 4-door & that the 1973 car was not a Series Production car, so had more freedoms & therefore probably had more power than the proposed Ph4.

Taking those 2 things into account would make it unlikely than the Ph4 would've done a 2.33.

It is interesting to look at the Ph1 vs Ph2 times. Geoghegan's pole in the 1969 Ph1 was quicker than Moffat's 1970 Ph2 pole time. As a matter of fact the 1970 race was slower in total time over 130 laps than the winning time of the old HT GTS350 in 1969. It should've been the reverse as the Ph2 (Cleveland) was more powerful than a Ph1 (Windsor) which was more power yet again than the 350 Monaro.

Dr Terry

whitelion65 · 24-10-2018, 08:21 AM

You don't think track condition plays a part do you, Dr Terry?
Interested in why you think the Coupe has better aero. I would have thought they would have been similar.

GT2 · 24-10-2018, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

You could argue that the XA Hardtop had better aero than the XA 4-door & that the 1973 car was not a Series Production car, so had more freedoms & therefore probably had more power than the proposed Ph4.

Taking those 2 things into account would make it unlikely than the Ph4 would've done a 2.33.

It is interesting to look at the Ph1 vs Ph2 times. Geoghegan's pole in the 1969 Ph1 was quicker than Moffat's 1970 Ph2 pole time. As a matter of fact the 1970 race was slower in total time over 130 laps than the winning time of the old HT GTS350 in 1969. It should've been the reverse as the Ph2 (Cleveland) was more powerful than a Ph1 (Windsor) which was more power yet again than the 350 Monaro.

Dr Terry

That’s just testament to the mighty Windsor.

Bossxr8 · 24-10-2018, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitelion65

You don't think track condition plays a part do you, Dr Terry?
Interested in why you think the Coupe has better aero. I would have thought they would have been similar.

It was better cause of the lower roof line. There were claims made at how it was a pretty good improvement over the sedan. Hence why when the Ph4 was canned they chose to use the coupe to race with (coupe wasn't ready for Ph4, and the Ph5 was going to be the coupe). Not to mention the wide rear wheel arches.

Need my memory refreshed, did the XA's run the 4 wheel discs or was that the XB?

Sooty · 24-10-2018, 12:19 PM

In terms of the road cars Boss, I think it was just the Landau's to begin with, and the GT's didn't receive them until the XB.
But... with regard to the race cars, I think I might have read or heard that Marsden was able to use discs all-round in '73 on the basis of claiming that the Landau was a production variant of the GT...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheap

1972 - Alan Moffat Phase 3 - qualified @ 2:38.5

1973 - John Goss XA Hardtop aka Phase 4 - qualified @ 2:33.5

Yes Cheap, you might be in the right ballpark there. An "Improved Production" Phase 4 wouldn't have had the fat 1973 Group C rubber, so one would suspect a time somewhere in-between the two you have cited (especially if Ford were able to use the 4-wheel discs on the '73 XA Group C) The only major unknown is probably whether the 351's power output in the first year of Group C was up, or down, compared to an Improved Production (ie. blueprinted) Phase 4(?)

I'm surprised however that none of the articles that have been written thus far have seemingly been able to extract an official "forecast" out of any of the leading factory team personalities who are still with us...

Anyhow, thanks to all of you so far Gents, and Best Wishes for now,
Sooty.

Dr Terry · 24-10-2018, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sooty

In terms of the road cars Boss, I think it was just the Landau's to begin with, and the GT's didn't receive them until the XB.
But... with regard to the race cars, I think I might have read or heard that Marsden was able to use discs all-round in '73 on the basis of claiming that the Landau was a production variant of the GT...

The rear disc thing was very iffy. They began racing XA with the rear discs prior to Bathurst without notifying anyone. One of the cars had a prang & lost a rear wheel & the whole world could see them.

The excuse they used at the time was that the Landau was an evolution of the GT so they could use them.

Given that the Landau had only just been released (Aug '73) & they would not have built the 200 required & that the Landau had the 2V headed motor didn't seem to matter.

The XB GT had rear discs, but they weren't released until after Bathurst that year.

Dr Terry

Vesper Martini · 24-10-2018, 04:32 PM

Whats the weight of the XY compared to the XA coupe?
Im thinking theres not much in it, but the coupes always looked so big & badass on the track

jpd80 · 24-10-2018, 06:11 PM

Didn't 73 XA coupe also have bigger tires for Bathurst?
I remember something about oil surge problems...

Sooty · 24-10-2018, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

The excuse they used at the time was that the Landau was an evolution of the GT so they could use them.

Given that the Landau had only just been released (Aug '73) & they would not have built the 200 required & that the Landau had the 2V headed motor didn't seem to matter.

According to the Production Figures table at the following link Dr Terry, they apparently manufactured some 258 Landau's in the months preceding October 1973. But I definitely agree with you that using the thing's brakes, but not its carb and manifold, was a case of questionable cashew-picking.

That cotton-pickin' Supercar Scare has got a lot to answer for...

http://hardtophub.com.au/facts/'

Dr Terry · 25-10-2018, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sooty

According to the Production Figures table at the following link Dr Terry, they apparently manufactured some 258 Landau's in the months preceding October 1973. But I definitely agree with you that using the thing's brakes, but not its carb and manifold, was a case of questionable cashew-picking.

That cotton-pickin' Supercar Scare has got a lot to answer for...

http://hardtophub.com.au/facts/'

Given that the lost wheel incident happened prior to Bathurst, either at Sandown (9-Sept) or Adelaide (26-Aug) there would not have been enough Landaus built in time to have homologation completed.

Dr Terry

minheim · 25-10-2018, 01:06 PM

The orange team car entered for Geoghegan lost its rear wheel exposing the disc brake setup at the Sandown 250.

Dr Terry · 25-10-2018, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by minheim

The orange team car entered for Geoghegan lost its rear wheel exposing the disc brake setup at the Sandown 250.

Well there you go. Do you think that Ford had enough Landaus built before a race held on Sunday 9-Sept. I think not !!

Dr Terry

Blue Roo · 25-10-2018, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Given that the lost wheel incident happened prior to Bathurst, either at Sandown (9-Sept) or Adelaide (26-Aug) there would not have been enough Landaus built in time to have homologation completed.

Dr Terry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Well there you go. Do you think that Ford had enough Landaus built before a race held on Sunday 9-Sept. I think not !!

Dr Terry

In the early days of Group C Racing and CAMS. Both Ford and Holden used alot of smoke and mirrors to get special parts or panels on to the race cars.

Sooty · 25-10-2018, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Well there you go. Do you think that Ford had enough Landaus built before a race held on Sunday 9-Sept. I think not !!

I'd say you are almost certainly correct Dr Terry. According to that particular table I cited earlier, only 85 of them had been manufactured by the end of August '73. They would therefore have to have made 115 of the 173 Landau's manufactured during September in the first 5 working days of that month...

But... If a gang of rowdy XU1 Fanboys happen to get you on the back foot over the matter, you could throw the following statistics at them: It appears that a total of 736 Hardtops of all types were made during that particular month, which - if spread out evenly over the 20 working days of that month - works out to a rate of about 26 of them per working-day, which happens to equal 130 hardtops over those crucial first 5 working days of the month, which when added to the 85 Landau's previously produced, would have been 15 more than the number required for homologation of the brakes, if they were all Landau's... (which is possible in Fan-land...)

Anyhow, Best Wishes for now,
Sooty.

Dr Terry · 26-10-2018, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Roo

In the early days of Group C Racing and CAMS. Both Ford and Holden used alot of smoke and mirrors to get special parts or panels on to the race cars.

Correct, but this is a fairly blatant example.

I don't think it was just the early days either, the homologation of the XD's kerb weight was a bit iffy at best also.

Dr Terry

TIC-302 · 14-01-2019, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheap

1972 - Alan Moffat Phase 3 - qualified @ 2:38.5

1973 - John Goss XA Hardtop aka Phase 4 - qualified @ 2:33.5

1971 - 2.38.9

1972 - 2.35.8

1973 - Group C 2.33.4

A series production HO4 i recon would have done a 2.34.8 maybe.... Althought.....Moffat only got a 2.34.5 in the modified XA GT coupe RPO83 works racecar.

Syndrome · 14-01-2019, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FTe342

Sure. A V8 Supercar time from a leaf spring suspension car on cheese cutters

You didn't read the media reports that these cars were going to reach 200mph?

FTe342 · 14-01-2019, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syndrome

You didn't read the media reports that these cars were going to reach 200mph?

Even if they could ( on the Hay Plains maybe but at Bathurst I don't think so) it wouldn't equate to over 20 secs a lap to get it below 2 mins

Syndrome · 14-01-2019, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FTe342

Even if they could ( on the Hay Plains maybe but at Bathurst I don't think so) it wouldn't equate to over 20 secs a lap to get it below 2 mins

My posts went straight over the top of your head. Most people on this forum realised I was taking the pis.