Micro/light car segment making no progress

[Franco Cozzo]

Just noticed a review of the new Kia Rio S, which is a sub $20K light/micro car.

https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...review-127608/

1.4L naturally aspirated, 74KW/133NM, comes with 6sp manual or 6sp torque converter auto.

Having a look over the past decade, where do we sit in this segment?

It appears its more common to have 6sp torque converter autos over the traditional 4sp of days gone by, and 6sp manuals instead of the more common 5sp manual.

It has disc brakes on the rear which is a step up from traditional drums fitted to this segment (and all of the Thailand Specials, absolutely ridiculous).

I feel that under the hood where it counts, there is literally no progress being made on engines in this class, I bought a new WS Fiesta in 2009, 88KW/152NM.

Going back a decade prior the WF Festiva we bought new in 1999 had a 1.5L engine and under 60KW, from 1999-2009 there was decent progress made with what your money bought you, under 60KW to 88KW is a big jump in terms of percentage in power and the car itself is a huge step up, they both use about the same amount of fuel, driving both, WS I average 6.3L/100km and the WF Festiva I averaged about 7L/100km.

Just to put it into perspective these cars cost about the same price when purchased new, WF Festiva in background (seen better days, it hasn't moved since I killed it taking it 4x4ing 5 years ago )

Note that there is no Ford representation in this segment anymore.



2009-2020 - virtually zero progress made in offerings in this segment in regards to powertrain, a couple extra gears on the autos, one extra gear for the manual, disc brakes on the rear axle and thats about it.

It seems that unless someone steps out of their comfort zone and convinces the bean counters then no one will make any progress, they're happy churning out the same stuff for decades - maybe with the Chinese companies like MG starting to offer better value and industry firsts (GWM having rear discs as factory) that the juggernauts may wake up?

[BENT_8]

Manufacturers are providing more fruit in these cars, its not about power they're just filling them with modern tech whilst maintaining a similar power to weight ratio.
Take your Festiva and Fiesta, whilst the power figures suggest a big jump in performance the reality is they both put out around 70kw/t.
When gauging the Rio you need to consider that Kia utilise previous generation Hyundai equipment so its bound to look ordinary on paper, however, you get a lot of small car for your coin in a Rio at sub $20k.

[hayseed]

The demographic that Buy those Micro cars (Young Singles). Are more concerned about Features than performance..

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by hayseed

The demographic that Buy those Micro cars (Young Singles). Are more concerned about Features than performance..

Are they though? I've bought one of these (that purple Fiesta was my first car). At the time it was the most powerful car in its segment

In that case the only car that would be selling is the Chinese MG3, top spec is $18K mark and it's jam packed with fancy electronic crap and it looks pretty funky to boot in that yellow colour.

https://www.caradvice.com.au/731365/2019-mg-3-review/

One of the families in my estate, both their daughters have these things.

[kevino]

Skoda Fabia
81 kw 200nm 7 speed dsg often in Qld available new at $19990 drive away.
Max torque from 2000 rpm
Vw Polo
85kw 200nm still available with a six speed manual at say $22500 drive away.

Fabia sold 88 units last month Focus 80 units.

These engine outputs are way better than any jap or Korean or Chinese car at the same price
point.
And as for dsg auto there is a 5 year warranty.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kevino

Skoda Fabia
81 kw 200nm 7 speed dsg often in Qld available new at $19990 drive away.
Max torque from 2000 rpm
Vw Polo
85kw 200nm still available with a six speed manual at say $22500 drive away.

Fabia sold 88 units last month Focus 80 units.

These engine outputs are way better than any jap or Korean or Chinese car at the same price
point.
And as for dsg auto there is a 5 year warranty.

I wouldn't go for anything with a DSG.

I'm suspect on a $20,000 car with a $15,000 gearbox in it

[kevino]

Yeah well I agree bought a five speed manual Fabia with the 70 kw 160 nm motor to avoid dsg.
But the six speed Polo would spit your Fiesta out.
My wife has a 2012 Fiesta powershift my 70 kw Fabia is a much better highway car as torque comes on at 1500 rpm unlike WT Fiesta at 4000 rpm

[danzvtil]

Rio has only just upgraded to a 6 Spd from 4 on the base engine in the last facelift. It’s a segment in decline, and as hayseed says, no one gives a toss how fast it goes, if CarPlay/AA is there, then it’s sold.

[Franco Cozzo]

Trying to do a bit of research into the 'micro car' segment in Australia I came up with a couple lists

https://gaycarboys.com/2019-top-micr...alia/top-cars/

Err, that's an interesting community, I thought it was a **** take on micro cars but it seems not

[kevino]

There’s a minority who want a decent motor at this price point and most of them I guess migrate to Fabia and Polo
Suzuki do a turbo Swift ( not the sport) but think it’s 24k.
My Fabia is a wagon has active cruise aeb Apple car play better highway economy than a hybrid Toyota and was in July 18.8 k drive away brand new 2020 build.

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Trying to do a bit of research into the 'micro car' segment in Australia I came up with a couple lists

https://gaycarboys.com/2019-top-micr...alia/top-cars/

Err, that's an interesting community, I thought it was a **** take on micro cars but it seems not

Well as an owner of a purple fiesta, you’d be driving their Mardi Gras float, right?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by danzvtil

Well as an owner of a purple fiesta, you’d be driving their Mardi Gras float, right?

Cav will be wheeling, I'm working the pole on the back

[oldel]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I feel that under the hood where it counts, there is literally no progress being made on engines in this class, I bought a new WS Fiesta in 2009, 88KW/152NM.

Going back a decade prior the WF Festiva we bought new in 1999 had a 1.5L engine and under 60KW, from 1999-2009 there was decent progress made with what your money bought you, under 60KW to 88KW is a big jump in terms of percentage in power and the car itself is a huge step up, they both use about the same amount of fuel, driving both, WS I average 6.3L/100km and the WF Festiva I averaged about 7L/100km.

Power has been maxed out for a long time. What manufacturers do now is limit emissions, try improve torque lower down etc.
Without a turbo you haven't been able to get more out of a low cost piston engine for a long time. It's been fancy intakes and valve timing for torque/'driveability'. Doesn't give you any more top end power, but uses less fuel down low and a better torque curve.
If you want better then you suffer cost and reliability of turbos and fancier intakes and injection. IE variable lift and duration valves, integrated manifolds to the head, High pressure fuel pumps and injectors that need constant cleaning or servicing etc.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by oldel

Power has been maxed out for a long time. What manufacturers do now is limit emissions, try improve torque lower down etc.
Without a turbo you haven't been able to get more out of a low cost piston engine for a long time. It's been fancy intakes and valve timing for torque/'driveability'. Doesn't give you any more top end power, but uses less fuel down low and a better torque curve.
If you want better then you suffer cost and reliability of turbos and fancier intakes and injection. IE integrated manifolds to the head, High pressure fuel pumps and injectors that need constant cleaning or servicing etc.

I'm sold on small capacity turbo engines for this segment - there used to be a 1.0L 3 cyl ecoboost option on the lower spec Fiesta before they discontinued them all except for the ST model.

[deesun]

People who buy the micro's often go on to buy the bigger cars and the same brand. Kia has 80% of the market in micro's, and are climbing the total sales ladder.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by deesun

People who buy the micro's often go on to buy the bigger cars and the same brand. Kia has 80% of the market in micro's, and are climbing the total sales ladder.

It all started with that WF Festiva GLXi with us.

There's a WS Fiesta CL, a WZ Fiesta ST behind it and my LV Focus is parked around the corner, all purchased new.

It brings me to the point that Ford has nothing under $30K these days, I got into the brand as a 17 year old kid with my first purchase of my Mardi Gras spec Fiesta

[XR Martin]

The 1.5L Festiva actually had a massive 66kw, and if I recall correctly the Excel was the power king in the segment with 75kw.

Oh that's cute said Toyota and Honda, who had 1.6L engines at the time with 125kw and 136kw respectively. (not sold here though)

[kevino]

Originally Posted by oldel

Power has been maxed out for a long time. What manufacturers do now is limit emissions, try improve torque lower down etc.
Without a turbo you haven't been able to get more out of a low cost piston engine for a long time. It's been fancy intakes and valve timing for torque/'driveability'. Doesn't give you any more top end power, but uses less fuel down low and a better torque curve.
If you want better then you suffer cost and reliability of turbos and fancier intakes and injection. IE variable lift and duration valves, integrated manifolds to the head, High pressure fuel pumps and injectors that need constant cleaning or servicing etc.

Seeing I run a 3 cyl turbo I expect some of these issues to come up.
I have been running 98 since new to mitigate these issues.
At what KMs do I expect fuel pump/injector cleaning etc or is it reduced by running 98?

[kevino]

I should add 80 per cent of my use is motorway running at 100/110k/hr except for Fridays when the commute home is a 90 minute slog due to half of Brisbane coming to where I live (Gold Coast) -I work in Brisbane live on Gold Coast.

[Bossxr8]

The micro car segment is a market most brands would/do avoid. They are just about impossible to make any money on. Manufacturers are abandoning even making these micro cars, and leaving it to the chinese/third world manufacturers to build them. Just look how many cars there are in the micro class now. Only a handful.

[kcee]

Originally Posted by hayseed

The demographic that Buy those Micro cars (Young Singles). Are more concerned about Features than performance..

^This.


Assuming im in the same segment, my wife purchased a Mazda 2 hatch for around 20k 3 yrs ago.
She did not want to spend more than that at all, so no pov pack Mazda 3, camry etc for the same price.



She went top of the line mazda 2 for all the features - satnav, cruise control, BT, keyless entry etc but it comes with a POS 1.3l (revs well) but not to my liking power wise.

[Sprintey]

A new Australian start up has done extensive market research and produced a micro car targeted at men who appreciate power in this class:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1DZ2H296gg

[Sprintey]

& jokes aside, GR Yaris is a little beast. Custom bodywork, AWD, the tuning etc

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

& jokes aside, GR Yaris is a little beast. Custom bodywork, AWD, the tuning etc

Yeah but $50K it's like get ya hand off it Toyota.

I wonder if Kia will do a hi-po Picanto

[marty351]

Grannys also like cars in this segment. Just like their vibrators, power set low for economy and ultimate mileage. Win-win.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Yeah but $50K it's like get ya hand off it Toyota.

I wonder if Kia will do a hi-po Picanto

Just get a Ford Fiesta Mk 8 ST for $35,000 on the road. Drop $5,000 on bigger intercooler, Dreamscience stage 2 tune, intake manifold, get about 200kw and close to 400nm torque.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

The 1.5L Festiva actually had a massive 66kw, and if I recall correctly the Excel was the power king in the segment with 75kw.

Oh that's cute said Toyota and Honda, who had 1.6L engines at the time with 125kw and 136kw respectively. (not sold here though)

Only for a very short time.

They were sold with the 66kw 16v engine late 1997 to early 1998 then reverted to the 8v 1.5 which had the 57kw output.

And boy did you feel the difference 9kw did to these cars. I test drove one and it bloody flew - I asked the guy if he was taking the **** with a tune or putting in AVGAS before the test drive. Popping the bonnet revealed a engine that looked different to mine, I believe it has a wider rocker cover that was finned.

Excel had 66kw standard then went to 74kw again with DOHC / 16v engine.

Mirage had 69kw.

The Opel based Barina had 80kw in the 1.6Gsi and that went very well.

The 1.4 came out with a whole 44kw but that jumped to 60kw towards the end of the model run.

That 44kw was useless (mum had one) and the engine worked very hard for a car that weighed over a ton.

For comparison the 1L Sirion (remember those things) had 40.5 kw (yes- they included the .5) as it probably played with the buyers brains that it made 'more' than 40kw.

They also sold a 1.3 GTvi that boosted power substantially...

As for GTI - the Suzuki Swift had the cracker 73kw 1.3L for what seemed like ages?

There was a 1.6 at the time that made great numbers compared to the competition - can't remember if it was the Hyundai Coupe at 88kw or something from Toyota? Around mid 90's.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

There was a 1.6 at the time that made great numbers compared to the competition - can't remember if it was the Hyundai Coupe at 88kw or something from Toyota? Around mid 90's.

AE93 Corolla SX with 100kw 4A-GE?

[anobserver]

Went shopping for a car after uni in the late 90s. Drove most of them. This was as a time when second hand cars were expensive, and tariff liberalisation was making small new cars affordable.

Ended up buying a CE Mirage, a manual 1.5l four cylinder. Acceleration was adequate, but the car was actually the nicest to drive that i came across.

Most of the rest were noisy, rough, felt and looked cheaply finished. The Mirage felt like a much more solid and reassuring car than its modest 935kgs would suggest.

Shame there was never a roadgoing version using the 1.8l engine from the Lancer. There was a one make Mirage racing series that ran briefly, with the same engines tuned to 130kw. Would have been great fun to drive.

[XR Martin]

Mirage Cyborg R had a 1.6 with 130kw