EV problems brewing........

[Tonz]

This is a garbage dump near Paris, France with hundreds of electrically powered cars.
Mind you, these are only cars used by the city of Paris and not personal vehicles.
They all have the same problem,.... the battery storage cells have gone and need to be replaced.
Why don't you just replace them?
Two reasons.. n
Firstly, the batteries cost almost double what the car costs new, and secondly, no landfill or waste processor will allow the batteries to be disposed of there.
So these green electric fairy tale cars are all on set-aside grounds while their batteries drain toxic substances to the ground.
Still think we should turn green????

[Citroënbender]

Mon frère, voici:

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL2N2N60XA



But here’s something just for you (Tonz), are you on this list?

[Ratmick]

Originally Posted by Tonz

This is a garbage dump near Paris, France with hundreds of electrically powered cars.
Mind you, these are only cars used by the city of Paris and not personal vehicles.
They all have the same problem,.... the battery storage cells have gone and need to be replaced.
Why don't you just replace them?
Two reasons.. n
Firstly, the batteries cost almost double what the car costs new, and secondly, no landfill or waste processor will allow the batteries to be disposed of there.
So these green electric fairy tale cars are all on set-aside grounds while their batteries drain toxic substances to the ground.
Still think we should turn green????

...so there's a couple of hundred cars there?

I'm still thinking it's a way forward instead of everyone carping on about how their world is going to end without having any other option apart from dying before oil runs out.

What about this:



300,000 Volkswagens sitting in the California desert after lying about their emissions standards...they're not going anywhere either...

...so why don't they fix those?

I'm thinking battery technology has got to come on a fair whack in regards to cost and upgradability before a battery pack can replace the IC engine, however one day (and pretty soon) the day of the IC engine will have passed, like steam power passed a fair while back.

There needs to be more thought put into designing and building electric vehicles that cover the 'end of battery pack life' aspect, ideally it should be like taking your car in for an engine rebuild and you have a swap-over.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

Mon frère, voici:

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL2N2N60XA

Oui oui baguette souffle dijon mustard

https://www.csiro.au/en/research/tec...tery-recycling

There is a serious issue with these bastard things though, steak au poivre

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Ratmick

...so there's a couple of hundred cars there?

I'm still thinking it's a way forward instead of everyone carping on about how their world is going to end without having any other option apart from dying before oil runs out.

What about this:

image

300,000 Volkswagens sitting in the California desert after lying about their emissions standards...they're not going anywhere either...

...so why don't they fix those?

I'm thinking battery technology has got to come on a fair whack in regards to cost and upgradability before a battery pack can replace the IC engine, however one day (and pretty soon) the day of the IC engine will have passed, like steam power passed a fair while back.

There needs to be more thought put into designing and building electric vehicles that cover the 'end of battery pack life' aspect, ideally it should be like taking your car in for an engine rebuild and you have a swap-over.

I'm thinking battery technology is the part that's going to hold us back for a long time, at the moment it's 1kg of fuel holds the same energy density as 20kg of lithium ion battery.

Unless there's a massive leap happening in the background I reckon the internal combustion engine is likely to be around and in common use for the next 25 years.

Batteries have made absolutely **** all improvement in the past 100+ years in comparison to other technology.

Hopefully I'm wrong, looking forward to EV Frankenstein Lebonator

[XR Martin]

Another one is wind turbine blades, can't be recycled so they are just buried at their end of life.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Tonz

This is a garbage dump near Paris, France with hundreds of electrically powered cars.

Mind you, these are only cars used by the city of Paris and not personal vehicles.

They all have the same problem,.... the battery storage cells have gone and need to be replaced.

Why don't you just replace them?

Two reasons.. n

Firstly, the batteries cost almost double what the car costs new, and secondly, no landfill or waste processor will allow the batteries to be disposed of there.

So these green electric fairy tale cars are all on set-aside grounds while their batteries drain toxic substances to the ground.

Still think we should turn green????

This is a fake news picture... Surprised it's still doing the rounds... But then again, misinformation is the name of the game.

Those cars don't have batteries. They have been stripped of batteries and are being sold off. Most have already been bought. The EVs didn't fail but rather the business model behind them.

Citroen nailed it.

The only garbage is the original post

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[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

Another one is wind turbine blades, can't be recycled so they are just buried at their end of life.

image

I've got a better idea, world is 70% ocean right?

Land is pretty valuable, dump them in the South China Sea

[Trevor 57]

I have been saying all this for a couple of years now - EV's are NOT the way of the future (neither are fossil fuel powered)

[Metdevil]

It's no wonder people dislike the fact-checkers so much when they impact their narrative so badly

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

I have been saying all this for a couple of years now - EV's are NOT the way of the future (neither are fossil fuel powered)

I agree. That's why I've invested in a small start-up company which converts kelp into biofuel.

[slowsnake]

The problem has never been the internal combustion engine, it's the energy needed to run it, fuel is not the issue, petrol or diesel, but the energy needed to produce it!

Hydrogen looks the best option to me, this is just a personal opinion, it works too, but producing it and fossil fuel derivatives uses and costs more than the end product!..petrol, diesel.....

PS- I mean cost to the environment, not just monetary!....

[kypez]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

Another one is wind turbine blades, can't be recycled so they are just buried at their end of life.



image

85% of a wind turbine can be recycled. The blades can be recycled but it's easier to bury them than do the necessary. They represent 0.015% of what goes into landfill. Recycling for these is something that has started as of last year.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...p-in-landfills

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[smoo]

Originally Posted by Metdevil

It's no wonder people dislike the fact-checkers so much when they impact their narrative so badly

In saying that, the OP is a blatant boomer meme, shared by boomers.

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I'm thinking battery technology is the part that's going to hold us back for a long time, at the moment it's 1kg of fuel holds the same energy density as 20kg of lithium ion battery.

Unless there's a massive leap happening in the background I reckon the internal combustion engine is likely to be around and in common use for the next 25 years.

Batteries have made absolutely **** all improvement in the past 100+ years in comparison to other technology.

Hopefully I'm wrong, looking forward to EV Frankenstein Lebonator

How many ICEs have been clean sheet designs in the last 3 or 5 years?
Seems as though manufacturers are just evolving existing platforms or adding hybrid to meet green regulations.
Hino and Isuzu have gone to Cummins to supply ISB and ISM for their small and mid size trucks, so they can dump all their R&D into battery tech. A bit of a gamble on their part I think.

[Metdevil]

Originally Posted by smoo

image

In saying that, the OP is a blatant boomer meme, shared by boomers.

Did you get that picture from r/onejoke?

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by kypez

85% of a wind turbine can be recycled. The blades can be recycled but it's easier to bury them than do the necessary. They represent 0.015% of what goes into landfill. Recycling for these is something that has started as of last year.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...p-in-landfills

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anything can be recycled but there is an associated cost. speaking of which I don't understand why they are Burying them? you couldn't build on top is it just to hide the evidence?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

Hydrogen looks the best option to me

I can see one advantage environmentally. H2 is produced by steam reforming of natural gas. Russia is going to be releasing a shedload of methane from melting permafrost, so if they could find a way to harness that before it finds its way into the atmosphere, it would be ideal.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

The problem has never been the internal combustion engine, it's the energy needed to run it, fuel is not the issue, petrol or diesel, but the energy needed to produce it!

Hydrogen looks the best option to me, this is just a personal opinion, it works too, but producing it and fossil fuel derivatives uses and costs more than the end product!..petrol, diesel.....

PS- I mean cost to the environment, not just monetary!....

Hydrogen does take an enormous amount of electricity to produce.
BUT.. it can be made when the sun is shining or when its windy..
EV owners will be charging overnight with their $2000 3 phase install which is fed by coal power stations.

Hydrogen is not without its flaws but there seems to be solutions - sorry Elon

[Citroënbender]

I think Tonz has run away from the thread, probably because he realised he actually is related to me.

So… Tonz, bro… Did you mean to press “Flush” and hit “Post” by mistake?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

anything can be recycled but there is an associated cost. speaking of which I don't understand why they are Burying them? you couldn't build on top is it just to hide the evidence?

Be interesting to find out. Maybe a better design allowing them to be collapsed at EOL will make it easier to take care of.

End of the day, how much fossil fuel can be recycled vs ends up as waste? I'd suggest a lot more than the 0.015% of these blades. But that doesn't mean we can't do better.

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[Citroënbender]

Designing for EOL processes is nearly so far off the table as our emissions targets. It’s a real shame. Textiles and foams are the ones that really get me, hopefully practical full cycles will be perfected soon.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

Designing for EOL processes is nearly so far off the table as our emissions targets. It’s a real shame. Textiles and foams are the ones that really get me, hopefully practical full cycles will be perfected soon.

I'm glad you didn't mention all those panels on solar farms

[Tonz]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

I'm glad you didn't mention all those panels on solar farms

I believe the Israeli government removes them from all buildings after 5-10 years and give them to farmers who use them for their sheep fences.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Tonz

I believe the Israeli government removes them from all buildings after 5-10 years and give them to farmers who use them for their sheep fences.

I think it's been well established that you'd believe anything

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[kypez]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

I'm glad you didn't mention all those panels on solar farms

They can be recycled... Cost to recycle outweighs the benefit from a momentary aspect at the moment. Sadly, driven on pure economics.

Sadly, we only look for better methods either when the damage is done or it's financially in favour.

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[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

Hydrogen does take an enormous amount of electricity to produce.
BUT.. it can be made when the sun is shining or when its windy..
EV owners will be charging overnight with their $2000 3 phase install which is fed by coal power stations.

Hydrogen is not without its flaws but there seems to be solutions - sorry Elon

Then let's go nuclear!

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

EV owners will be charging overnight with their $2000 3 phase install which is fed by coal power stations.

Hydrogen is not without its flaws but there seems to be solutions - sorry Elon

Don't need 3 phase. Has been discussed plenty of times. You're being deliberately obtuse now. Single phase is plenty for 99% of the population.

And the coal used is still cleaner than petrol/diesel. And a heck of a lot cheaper!

[EgoFG]

So I did a crude estimate:


Fuel ('Gas') production transport and consumption efficiencies from source to engine power (including averaged transport loss)(average for USA)


Electricity production (average for USA) Loss in transmission (average for USA). charging to engine power


My calculations were crude, rough, and not to be trusted.
But ... it appeared that a battery powered car was just as bad in terms of 'pollution per mile' - this was only environmental cost of operation (no manufacturing, maintenance or disposal)


Has anyone done/seen any reliable analysis on this ?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

So I did a crude estimate:


Fuel ('Gas') production transport and consumption efficiencies from source to engine power (including averaged transport loss)(average for USA)


Electricity production (average for USA) Loss in transmission (average for USA). charging to engine power


My calculations were crude, rough, and not to be trusted.
But ... it appeared that a battery powered car was just as bad in terms of 'pollution per mile' - this was only environmental cost of operation (no manufacturing, maintenance or disposal)


Has anyone done/seen any reliable analysis on this ?

So you're saying that petroleum based products, that have caused massive spills into the ocean (For Example, Deepwater Horizon; that continued to leak 8 years after it was "sealed"), huge environmental damage events, that produces toxic gases with some emissions being shown to be carcinogenic... All that is somehow similar to burning coal and a grid that has a considerable input powered by renewables as well... I'd love to see your calculations and assumptions you're making!

Sounds similar to what big Tabasco used to say about smoking vs non smoking.

There are several articles and discussion papers not funded by big oil that clearly shows that EVs are ahead and by a considerable margin.

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[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by kypez

Don't need 3 phase. Has been discussed plenty of times. You're being deliberately obtuse now. Single phase is plenty for 99% of the population.

And the coal used is still cleaner than petrol/diesel. And a heck of a lot cheaper!

ill admit that carrot was for you.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Ratmick

...so there's a couple of hundred cars there?

I'm still thinking it's a way forward instead of everyone carping on about how their world is going to end without having any other option apart from dying before oil runs out.

What about this:

image

300,000 Volkswagens sitting in the California desert after lying about their emissions standards...they're not going anywhere either...

...so why don't they fix those?

I'm thinking battery technology has got to come on a fair whack in regards to cost and upgradability before a battery pack can replace the IC engine, however one day (and pretty soon) the day of the IC engine will have passed, like steam power passed a fair while back.

There needs to be more thought put into designing and building electric vehicles that cover the 'end of battery pack life' aspect, ideally it should be like taking your car in for an engine rebuild and you have a swap-over.

Bring back colours like Nitro and Octane and that bright green colour that the FG Falcons came in - look at that, everything is white, grey or silver.

Cars are depressing these days, no wild colours.