Police LPG Falcons = Lemon?

ClevlndStemer · 18-06-2006, 11:26 AM

NSW Police union demanding LPG falcons be pulled from service due to ongoing reliability problems .

Quote:

"UNION bosses have demanded that one in five NSW police cars be taken off urgent duty because the LP gas systems they use can cause dangerous sudden breakdowns."
"In a green-friendly move expected to save millions of dollars and spare the environment hundreds of tonnes in harmful emissions, NSW Police embarked on a program to convert 700 petrol-guzzling cars to gas three years ago.

But the ambitious plan has backfired because the six-cylinder Falcon patrol vehicles keep conking out, leaving officers stranded."
"In numerous cases the LPG cars have shut down without warning during emergency response calls, raising concerns about serious accidents occurring, senior police sources say.

Elsewhere, officers have been left stranded at busy intersections or simply embarrassed by the side of the road waiting for a tow."
"Police sources said the problem was occurring almost daily.

"Most of the time it's been when cars are on urgent duties," said one officer, who asked not to be identified.
Force sources said the car suddenly lost engine power, steering and braking capacity - just a day after being repaired for a similar failure on June 5.

"If you're driving at 100kmh when the engine dies and the power steering drops out, you're in trouble, big trouble - especially if you're in the middle of a pursuit and on a bend. It has to be [only] a matter of time before someone's killed.

"Another scenario is that the fuel gauges seem to break and no one's ever quite sure when the tank is empty.

"One vehicle being used by detectives had notes all over the dashboard that were supposed to show when it was last filled.

"But as soon as one of the bits of paper went missing, the next bloke to drive it had the car die on him out Woop Woop somewhere and had to have it towed."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...964784214.html

Thunder · 18-06-2006, 12:00 PM

So why isnt there any problems with gas powered taxis? Like all of the taxis run on gas, why dont they have this problem? I dont think its the car thats the problem :evil3:

Thunder · 18-06-2006, 12:03 PM

So why isnt there any problems with gas powered taxis? Like all of the taxis run on gas, why dont they have this problem? I dont think its the car thats the problem :evil3:

Fairlane · 18-06-2006, 01:05 PM

I dont get it really. Maybe the coppers are drumming it up a bit because they just dont like them.

My E-gas falcon runs great, i dont get the convertor freezing because of the car not being warmed up thing mentioned in the SMH article. I honestly dont get it.

Disco1986 · 18-06-2006, 01:18 PM

im sure they drive a little differently then a taxi driver and the petrol version is probly a much better choice anyway!

Dazza XLT · 18-06-2006, 01:21 PM

They all want Typhoons now!
Were they aftermarket LPG kits, or ford factory jobs? By the sounds of the article, they converted the old cars over to LPG.
Could be the kits themselves, not the cars... :yeees:

Falcon Freak · 18-06-2006, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairlane

I dont get it really. Maybe the coppers are drumming it up a bit because they just dont like them.

Maybe it is propaganda by the pro-Holden members of the police force who want to go back to driving Holdens.

Lucky for Ford that Holden didn't release a dedicated LPG Alloytech engine with direct injection.

FF

EL_futuraistic · 18-06-2006, 01:37 PM

By the sounds of it they are dedicated gas, otherwise they would switch to petrol and drive home, but it does say converted.

Police vehicles are driven very differently to Taxi's, they get thrashed... and perhaps for the stop, start hard acceleration driving the gas system they chose isnt upto the task.

PH47 · 18-06-2006, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairlane

I dont get it really. Maybe the coppers are drumming it up a bit because they just dont like them.

Bingo..

DDXR6T · 18-06-2006, 01:55 PM

Our work LPG ute is a lemon too. Fuel gauge does'nt work ... and always conks out too. Nothing worse than driving it with half a tank and all of a sudden the needle drops to empty ...

aimzes · 18-06-2006, 02:40 PM

Quote:

i dont get the convertor freezing because of the car not being warmed up thing mentioned in the SMH article. I honestly dont get it.

dont know if its the same in the dedicated lpg systems but in the pre BA taxis and cars with older lpg systems water from the radiator is pumped into covertor. the only time ive ever seen it freeze is when the radiator is empty.

perhaps if the water isnt warm these new systems freeze? but that doesnt explain why if happening during emergency calls, surely the water would be hotter?

the only probs ive seen in dedicated lpg BAs is the gauge.

Bobman · 18-06-2006, 02:45 PM

They are lemons.

Dedicated LPG in all of our 80 BA taxis have had major problems, and without fail at least 1 will come back on a tow truck every two nights or so.

Racecraft doesn't even bother with egas. I can see why they are having trouble though.

LPG was fine in AU's why the sudden change in BA's? Can anyone say "cost cutting" ;)

sam12h · 18-06-2006, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wicked

They are lemons.

Dedicated LPG in all of our 80 BA taxis have had major problems, and without fail at least 1 will come back on a tow truck every two nights or so.

Racecraft doesn't even bother with egas. I can see why they are having trouble though.

LPG was fine in AU's why the sudden change in BA's? Can anyone say "cost cutting" ;)

My turn to call BINGO.
All government departments equipment is supplied by the LOWEST bidder. Sounds like dodgy, hasty, el cheapo conversions to me.
Short cuts & cost cuts have a way of not really being short cuts or cost cuts :togo: :gren:

Fairlane · 18-06-2006, 04:20 PM

They are not conversions all LPG cars in the NSW fleet are E-gas. END OF STORY

Bobman · 18-06-2006, 04:24 PM

Exactly.

Police would not get conversions done. That's just stupid and pointless.

Dazza XLT · 18-06-2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by News Article

"In a green-friendly move expected to save millions of dollars and spare the environment hundreds of tonnes in harmful emissions, NSW Police embarked on a program to convert 700 petrol-guzzling cars to gas three years ago."

I am just going off what I am reading above...

Bobman · 18-06-2006, 04:43 PM

Convert in fleet terms means - Sell petrol cars and replace with gas cars at changeover.

Dazza XLT · 18-06-2006, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wicked

Convert in fleet terms means - Sell petrol cars and replace with gas cars at changeover.

I see...

HOON69 · 18-06-2006, 07:07 PM

if they warmed them up properly i guess they might not have as many break downs
how come this problem isnt occuring as such with the family lpg falcons?

**Stav** · 18-06-2006, 07:10 PM

Why the hell would you get lpg powered cars for a police chase in the first place? Why dont they just get corrollas

dogwatch2 · 18-06-2006, 07:24 PM

I think the problem is the Cops are hopping into cold cars and thrashing them, which means the cooling water isn't hot enough to warm up the liquid to gas convertor; so high gas flow when thrashing with cold radiator equals freezing up and stalling.

**Mechan1k** · 18-06-2006, 10:04 PM

The cops thrash those car so hard ... my fiancee's brother is a Blacktown copper ... and damn ... I have seen him drive ... and it's not gentle.

They were meant to be just for GD vehicles ... not for chases ... but then they were used in some chases and had issues.

The BA EGAS models were more "sensitive" than the previous AU models.
And really the EGAS models aren't meant to be thrashed really anyway (even though mine does get a hell of a lot of hard work some days ... but it's an AU).

Have seen and heard of many BAs having more issues than my AU.

Mutley · 18-06-2006, 10:21 PM

Have the BA's got a better cooling system than the AU's which would explain the increase in cooling/heating problems in the BA's?

**Mechan1k** · 18-06-2006, 10:29 PM

It's not that ... the anti-freeze in the coolant stops the gas from freezing ... but sudden acceleration and hard braking (mental case police driving) ... and hard cornering can have effects on some LPG systems.

Also there were issues with it takes longer to start an LPG vehicle ... and if you don't hopld the key for long enough you can flood the coverter ... and then it takes a good 10 seconds to start (that's the driver has no idea about LPG).

Police want a vehicle they can get into start and floor immediately ... LPG vehicles you can't ... in am emergency condition that officers may need to move or retreat ... they can't touch the accelerator and start the car ... it cuts it out ... whereas on petrol they sometimes flatten the throttle when turning the key to move immediately.

This is another safety issue.

Also after a while if the LPG system is not serviced ... the solenoids for the gas lock offs stick from the wax from LPG residue .... it causes the car to not start ... not a good thing.

knowing police vehicles ... it's a long time between servicing ... and they need more regular servicing than what the handbook suggests.

Redrum · 18-06-2006, 10:34 PM

Regardless of whether or not coppers drive them right, if they are no good, get rid of them. My experience with gas cars is not good either, in any conditions. Gutless, hard to start and unreliable.

huggiebear · 18-06-2006, 10:50 PM

police vehicles are only kept for 40 000kms then sold off for new ones. my brother has an AU XR6 ex d-car and has never has any issues with it, even tho its not gas you would think there would be a fair amount of happen to them especially being a d-car

qwigybo · 19-06-2006, 01:02 AM

Quote:

But as soon as one of the bits of paper went missing, the next bloke to drive it had the car die on him out Woop Woop somewhere and had to have it towed.

maybe they should fill them up at the start of each shift regardless of the note haha

Steffo · 19-06-2006, 01:15 AM

You'll find that very few Falcon taxi's are factory E-Gas models. The vast majority are cars bought second hand cheaply at auctions (you can buy a BA XT sedan, prime for being a cab, white etc for ~$7000) and converted to LPG. It makes no financial sense to purchase a brand new E-Gas car for $40,000 (once all the taxi stuff has been done to it) and to run it into the ground over six and a half years.

Police vehicles are also required to last a different time to taxi's, and without knowing, I'd assume they're treaded differently.

In NSW, at least, a taxi vehicle must be Australian made (maxi-taxi's aside, no Aussie made vans to speak of), run on LPG and are allowed to be run for six years and six months from date of manufacture. And in that time they usually cover approximately 1,000,000km. They're rarely taken to the limit. Most of the time (in Sydney esp) is spend between idle and ~2500rpm in traffic driving etc. I'm sure police cars reguarly see their rev limits, chasing people, getting to emergencies quickly and whatnot. Very different treatment.

Most Falcon taxi's (that I know of) have their engines and gearboxes pulled at 500,000km and rebuilt. I have no clue about police vehicle life or maintenance so I'll refrain from commenting. However, I have heard bad things about the BA E-Gas models, but no BA taxi I have ever seen has been a factory LPG, they've all been second hand purchase converts, and all run fine.

Bobman · 19-06-2006, 01:15 AM

hehe that's what taxi drivers do, as most AU/BA gauges dont work and they depot tells them to fill every 300km and reset the odometer but even that doesnt get reset sometimes so its always smart to check the tank.

AWD Chaser · 19-06-2006, 03:10 AM

I don't think that it's the cars themselves.... I've been involved with Falcon taxies all either on dedicated gas, or dual fuel, and they don't have these probs.

It could be anything from secondhand gas conversions, police electricals causing a fault, or possibly a computer edit causing a fault...

Just wait till we start seeing the Territory Turbo Police cars.... that will be cool...