English at Schools

xbgs351 · 11-02-2007, 03:37 PM

What is with those graduating from high school these days? Capitilisation, punctuation and grammar all seem to have gone out the window. Whilst looking at some of the threads in the General Topic area of this forum recently, I noted some threads where 50% of the posts contained no capital letters.

What the hell is going on? Don't teachers take marks off in English and other subjects for spelling, punctuation and grammar mistakes any more? Do the schools even teach the basics of English in the first place? Are high school graduates just lazy or do they think that it is cool or faster to leave out capital letters? Do they even realise that they come across as illiterate fools? I'm beginning to suspect that new keyboards do not have shift keys anymore. Have they been replaced with lol keys.

I'm particularly interested in responses from those that have recently finished high school, school teachers and from those that employ or teach people just out of high school.

fou_bleu · 11-02-2007, 03:42 PM

Why make something that is not a live-or-die matter (ie: resume!) so proper? I believe so long as we can understand what's in the post, it doesn't matter how they spell it etc. IMO that is

Ryan · 11-02-2007, 03:55 PM

I agree, with V8motormouth. Aslong as it's understandable, I see no problem.

Text talking is what I don't like. The occasional "lol", "wtf" etc is ok, but I hate trying to read an entire post like that. (As I said in the thread, about correct spelling for "definitely")

I don't think anyone should type 100% perfectly, because after it's a forum and we're here to have fun, but they should atleast make the effort, to make sure everyone can read it.

Straining your eyes, trying to understand an illiterate moron's post certainly isn't fun. :(

StookEB · 11-02-2007, 03:59 PM

Spelling isn't taught in the later years only really in years 7&8. Though most teachers correct grammer errors but rarely talk about it in the later years.

MITCHAY · 11-02-2007, 03:59 PM

As long as it's legible, I don't care if it's grammatically correct or not.

pertuan · 11-02-2007, 03:59 PM

Personally, I think its better to try and punctuate, capitalise and have proper grammar. Key word there... try. Its just good practise. It is a forum, and we are here to have fun but it really is just practise for when you have to write a proper letter. Once you get into it, it really isn't all that hard.

Thats just my opinion though, and my English skills certainly aren't 100%.

**Falcon Coupe** · 11-02-2007, 04:00 PM

The problem is :

1. Trying to decipher it in the first place.

2. I feel like I'm in the middle of high school kid mobile phone text talk competition much of the time.

3. Some mistakes are so common i start to second guess myself and have to refer to a Dictionary.

My English is far from perfect, but i try.

xrobx · 11-02-2007, 04:02 PM

Usually abbreviation is used because it's much quicker and easier. But it gets to the point where you grow accustomed to it and use it in everyday tasks (essays, etc), which is bad.

I'm hell anal about spelling and grammar. Can't stand people who "typ lyk dis". I'm only 17 though.

GXL078 · 11-02-2007, 05:24 PM

I think you mean "English IN schools", rather than English AT schools.

Teacher are unable to penalise students for poor spelling as that would disadvantage students form non-english speaking backgrounds. This is NOT a NEW phenomenon by the way. I started kindergarten at the local Catholic school in 1974 and myself and 4 other students had to sit in the staffroom while the rest of the class were taught English. I have no doubt that this contributed to my ongoing delinquency and emotional disturbance.

Miller · 11-02-2007, 07:50 PM

Yeah, problem is people are to accustomed to text talk these days. I don't think they realize that they have something like a 30000 character limit.

Venomous · 11-02-2007, 08:07 PM

I guess it depends on the person, I'm currently in grade 12 and whenever i am online i ensure i use the correct punctuation. You'd be surprised the amount of people i have on msn who still talk like this 'lik, yer, wat'.

Outbackjack · 11-02-2007, 08:08 PM

I agree XBGS351. If I start to read a post that is not punctuated properly or has at least 6th grade grammer, I dont bother reading any further and just put the writer down as a buffoon who's opinion is probably not worth considering anyway. The way I see it, if you cant write and spell well, you were probably staring out the window instead of listening to the teacher. We all make some mistakes ocasionally, but some only get it correct ocasionally.

GK · 11-02-2007, 08:21 PM

I'm a teacher in the Independant Sector. We have consistently higher standards than from the government schools around us.

Last week, and ex student from last year said her class (now year 10) was being taught the same essay writing techniques that she as our school was taught in Yr 7!

GK

all4ford · 11-02-2007, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GK

I'm a teacher in the Independant Sector. We have consistently higher standards than from the government schools around us.

Last week, and ex student from last year said her class (now year 10) was being taught the same essay writing techniques that she as our school was taught in Yr 7!

GK

I personally don't think the school has that much to do with it unless we are talking about renowned schools. I think as someone else said, it comes down to the person. I finished school (public) in 2004 and I wont attest to perfect spelling and grammar, but I do write quite well most of the time.

rodderz · 11-02-2007, 10:13 PM

I remember reading that noble park maccas forum a while back, it was like trying to read a text message off Ali G... although the posters seemed to be of the non-english kind, maybe they were writing their accent lol

Skooter · 11-02-2007, 10:26 PM

I recently finished high school which is a private school and I went to a private primary school, and to be honest I cant really remember the last time I had a spelling or grammer lesson. Even in primary school we never had spelling tests or similar in years 6 or 7. I think these days its more about analysing texts rather than writing them. In my essays that were marked by teachers occasionaly there would be a circled misplelt word or grammer error, but thats it.

**GasoLane** · 11-02-2007, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

I agree XBGS351. If I start to read a post that is not punctuated properly or has at least 6th grade grammer, I dont bother reading any further and just put the writer down as a buffoon who's opinion is probably not worth considering anyway.

Agreed, if it talks like a duck... etc

XRchic · 11-02-2007, 11:41 PM

I agree 100%. It appears that kids these days are really leaving school with a substandard ability to spell and write properly. I can live with a bit of text speak, like LOL, WTF, DGAF, AFAIK and so on. That is not a problem with education, just a habit and a sign of the times. No probs there.

I dont even care about the odd spelling mistake or typo, everyone does that. And grammar does not even need to be perfect in posts on here either.

But when you see whole posts with NO capitals (or capitals on every word, that is hard to read and I hate it), no punctuation, and lots of ur for your, lots of dat for that, wif for with, use/youse for you etc, then it gets annoying. And then some ridiculous spelling errors that indicate the real problems - recently on this forum I saw excellerator for accelerator. That sort of thing makes me worried about who is going to be the next generation of this country as it seems to be an epidemic!!!

As for private schools - they are very different. My kids are currently in year 7 and year 4. They have started at a private school at the end of last year and are back this year. The difference is massive. And both of my kids had been to two public schools before entering the private school system, so I had two schools to compare to.

There is no comparison, Im not kidding. You do NOT realise the difference until you experience it, and it is beyond comprehension. I am kicking myself for not getting mine into private schools earlier than I did. My daughter is in year 7 in the private school this year (in SA, high school starts in year 8). Her teachers now say that she is about 3 years (3 WHOLE YEARS!!!) behind the other kids in her class with literacy, numeracy and general knowledge!!! My son is suffering about the same.

I took them to a private and very well known psychologist and she agreed that they were behind the game big time, despite having IQs of 157 and 133!!! She fully recommended the private school system.

Some of the other differences are mind blowing and so numerous that I wont go into all of them here but suffice to say that there is soooooo much more teacher involvement, care, interest and attention given to my kids now, sooooo many more resources and the way *I* am treated is also blowing me away.

And this is just PRIMARY school we are talking about here. High school is a bigger deal again. We have decided to send both kids to Pulteney Grammar for high school, and also enrol the baby in the Pulteney Early Learning Centre when he is 4 as well.

And I went to Blackwood High (public). Eamon, my partner, went to both public and private in Vic and agrees with me. I cant speak highly enough of the private school system so far in SA anyway... If you have kids with "problems" like ADHD/ADD or dyslexia, then it is doubly more money well spent...

Anyway, that is enough my rant. *please do not take this post as me having a go at any of the public school teachers either, I think they are just stuck in a system that is so hard to deal with and their jobs are just terribly hard, and that they do their best.*

GCFordChic · 11-02-2007, 11:57 PM

I do hate it when old people whinge all the time about the younger generation not being up to the standard that they believe themselves to be at. :P

My dad has been a teacher for over 20 years. He has always taught Design Technology/Graphics/Art/Workshop. He is not allowed to penalise students for spelling, grammar or formatting mistakes. He thinks it is ridiculous and has brought it up many times with management. As far as they are concerned, he is not teaching English, so it would be disadvantageous for students already getting low grades in English. They describe it as being penalised twice for their lower level of 'understanding of the curriculum'.

As for myself, I am 20, I will be starting my 4th year at uni in a couple of weeks, I always take time to construct my posts in a way that I believe others will be able to understand. I do not aim to be 100% correct in my grammar and spelling. Yet, I went through the same school system as those around me that this thread seems to be criticising.

Is it the school, the individual or the parents we should be blaming? Should we point the finger at anyone? Perhaps the reason you think the younger generation is getting worse in their spelling etc is because it is right here in front of you, by those students who got As as well as those who failed.

Perhaps before the boom of the Internet those that were not as skilled in their written speech steered away from corresponding in writing and spoke to each other instead. Perhaps you are not seeing a dumber/lazier generation, but you are just viewing the writing of a much larger and diverse cross-section of this generation...

XRchic · 12-02-2007, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GCFordChic

I do hate it when old people whinge all the time about the younger generation not being up to the standard that they believe themselves to be at. :P

My dad has been a teacher for over 20 years. He has always taught Design Technology/Graphics/Art/Workshop. He is not allowed to penalise students for spelling, grammar or formatting mistakes. He thinks it is ridiculous and has brought it up many times with management. As far as they are concerned, he is not teaching English, so it would be disadvantageous for students already getting low grades in English. They describe it as being penalised twice for their lower level of 'understanding of the curriculum'.

As for myself, I am 20, I will be starting my 4th year at uni in a couple of weeks, I always take time to construct my posts in a way that I believe others will be able to understand. I do not aim to be 100% correct in my grammar and spelling. Yet, I went through the same school system as those around me that this thread seems to be criticising.

Is it the school, the individual or the parents we should be blaming? Should we point the finger at anyone? Perhaps the reason you think the younger generation is getting worse in their spelling etc is because it is right here in front of you, by those students who got As as well as those who failed.

Perhaps before the boom of the Internet those that were not as skilled in their written speech steered away from corresponding in writing and spoke to each other instead. Perhaps you are not seeing a dumber/lazier generation, but you are just viewing the writing of a much larger and diverse cross-section of this generation...

Jen, I assure you, that if my daughter grows up to be ANYthing like you when she is 20, I will be one very proud Mum. Young people like you (and others on here) do give me some hope for the future!!!

And I agree, I think there is many levels to be accountable for such things. The individual has to take responsibility for their own learning in basic areas, the schools need to be responsible too (that is their job) and ABSOLUTELY the parents need to be responsible!

I also agree with your point Jen, that the Internet provides us with a broader cross section of people who are expressing their views in writing. However, that only gives me more cause for concern! The fact that people exist who have these levels of skills at all is a cause for concern in this day and age... some of the examples we have seen on here recently by people about your age is absolutely scary! And I really do worry what future they have...

As I said, normal spelling mistakes and typos do not bother me, everyone does them. I get lazy with apostrophes as well, I know that... So please do not take this as me having a go at everyone who makes a mistake in their posts either... I think you all know the kinds of posts I mean though.

Jen, good luck with Uni!!!

Ford_Boy · 12-02-2007, 12:10 AM

I have been to only public schools and sometimes I know it shows. I may seem well spoken but I am terrible at maths. I try to use grammar in post because I know alot of people have trouble reading the "slang" used by some people.

I don't really think it matters if someone forgets to type with capitals, its not an english test or a formal letter. As long as its readible at a glance and does not need to be read over and over then that should be fine.

I can't stand when people uses abreviations like "AFAIK " I don't even know what that stands for. Lol is okay because that is so common now and it is a good way to express laughter. For those who do not know what "lol" stands for; it stands for "laugh out loud". My pet hate is when people use words that are spelt like other words with no relation except for the similar spelling eg; quiet and quite, two and too, use and you, they're and there

GCFordChic · 12-02-2007, 12:38 AM

Awwww shucks, thanks Jac!

e

:

I think it is about responsibility and about more than just the education system (which is the basic and obvious place to start from). Kids have to want to learn, where do they get that drive? I think either from within or from their parents.

Like so many things in life there are cycles, generally, if one's parents were not committed and responsible for their learning it is likely the child will adopt the same attitude and then all the responsibility will be thrown over to teachers.

However, I don't believe teachers are immune from the apportionment of blame. But what can we expect when the standards for admission to a teaching degree have dropped dramatically, not to mention that because there is a 'shortage' of teachers a new (much lower $$) HECS band for education courses was created to 'entice' people to become teachers.

There is no glory, no money and little satisfaction in teaching. I have watched my parents (in the private sector) work long days, through their lunch breaks and through their 'holidays' only to get cheek from students, harassed by parents (who were usually unhappy with the grade their child received) and told off by management for not being able to stay within budget. As far as many my age are concerned, if you are smart enough to do anything else, you wouldn't bother becoming a teacher. Unless, of course, you have a passion for it, or you want to contribute to society.

When considering my options for my career my parents (who are both teachers) told me that I should do anything I want as long as (1) it makes me happy and (2) it doesn't involve becoming a teacher.

My dad has just accepted a job with a private university assisting teachers develop their course structures and incorporating better teaching and assessment practices. He is happier than he has been for a long long time because his talents, experience and intelligence are finally being recognised and utilised. I am biased, but I was also taught by my dad for 1 year, there are not many teachers like him around any more. They are at the point of retirement/exhaustion.

The bottom line is that to increase the standards of education, the standard of teacher needs to be raised. Better working conditions and increased pay would be a good start. We should be investing in teachers.

Outbackjack · 12-02-2007, 12:44 AM

My Wife teaches special needs kids at a public school out here in the Alice. She works with a very dedicated bunch of people. It all comes back to the home evironment and parent attitude. If you could hear some of stories of the home life these little tackers have it would bring a tear to your eye. But having said that, all three of my kids go to private schools. I guess that makes me a hypocrite.....

lukey · 12-02-2007, 12:46 AM

I'm a recent school leaver and I agree that not only on these forums, but people and friends I talk to everyday can't take the time to just write properly. It's not hard and if you do it right all the time it will become normal and you won't even have to concentrate on writing correctly. People figure they don't care about it on the forums coz they think you shouldn't have to go to the effort, but when it becomes nature to write crappy like that and when you start doing it in your job and daily life, its gonna make you look awfully stupid even if you're not.

I don't think it's the teachers fault, most teachers I've had at high school, TAFE and uni are all dedicated to teaching kids properly, but so many kids are just too lazy to learn or pay attention.

Basically I just look at it this way - if you're not going to take the time to write properly, I'm not going to take the time to read it properly

XRchic · 12-02-2007, 12:51 AM

Jen, I agree, teachers, particularly in state schools, have a terrible time. The pressure must be enormous and some of the kids they have to deal with are so difficult. Ive seen some parents abusing teachers in the most shocking way, because their child got punished for bullying and such, at school. Parents like that are the problem. My kids had some fantastic teachers at one of the public schools, but they just got worn out with it all, and I cant blame them. The Principal at that school was also a big problem in my opinion.

Outbackjack, your wife must be a legend. People like her make it all worthwhile I think. Only certain people have it in them to do that kind of work. I couldnt, I would just be too sad.

uranium_death · 12-02-2007, 12:54 AM

I am a real **** when it comes to spelling and punctuation. I hate poor grammar, spelling and punctuation, even on a forum. It drives me insane.

Improper use of "your/you're", "there/their/they're" and "where, were, we're" is my pet hate. It isn't hard. And improper use of the above actually does make things harder to read.

"Your an idiot". What? I don't own a single "an idiot".
In which case, "you're the idiot" for the absence of an apostrophe.

I'm entering Primary Education as a teacher soon and I'll be hammering home the importance of all concerned.

Damn mobile phones are destroying everything. Littlele **** yuppies tlkng wit mob phns is dstroyng englsh. It isn't gr8.

Bah.

Use dictionary.com. They'll tell you how to spell.

XRchic · 12-02-2007, 01:01 AM

I might add that I am a mobile phone junkie. And I love sms. However, I acutally type all words on my message properly, as I dont like to use that silly stuff even on an sms! I do however, use the odd LOL or whatever...

Uranium death, you can teach my kids anytime mate!

Ford_Boy · 12-02-2007, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukey

I'm a recent school leaver and I agree that not only on these forums, but people and friends I talk to everyday can't take the time to just write properly. It's not hard and if you do it right all the time it will become normal and you won't even have to concentrate on writing correctly. People figure they don't care about it on the forums coz they think you shouldn't have to go to the effort, but when it becomes nature to write crappy like that and when you start doing it in your job and daily life, its gonna make you look awfully stupid even if you're not.

I don't think it's the teachers fault, most teachers I've had at high school, TAFE and uni are all dedicated to teaching kids properly, but so many kids are just too lazy to learn or pay attention.

Basically I just look at it this way - if you're not going to take the time to write properly, I'm not going to take the time to read it properly

I'm not trying to be a smartass because you can look back at my previous posts. I am one to use poor spelling and rarely use capitals so I think I can safely point out to you that if you are going to preach like that you should really check your spelling. There are so many words in your post that have been shortend with slang.

birdman941 · 12-02-2007, 01:23 AM

It's the same way here in the states.
My GF and I pulled her kids out of public school 2 years ago,
and placed them in as private school, partially due to the subject of this thread.
My GF didn't notice it, maybe because she thought it was "normal".
I had to point out several things mentioned in this thread, and ask her
"Is this how you want them to communicate with people when they become adults?"
Crap like saying "Sup dog?'.
WTF is that?
What exactly is a "sup", and to whom are you referring to as a dog?
I don't see a canine anywhere in the area.
That type of rubbish and wearing a ballcap sideways,
walking around with your shoes untied, wearing pants so baggy,
the wearer appears to have been morbidly obese at one point in their life.
I have actually asked one of these "youth" if they recently lost 100 lbs.
Appearing, writing and speaking that way does not make one look "cool".
It makes one look stupid, unkempt, and sound like a bag lady.
How many successful people talk, dress, walk and write that way?
Why write, walk, look and speak like a loser?
Plan for success.
Start with communication skills.

all4ford · 12-02-2007, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRchic

I might add that I am a mobile phone junkie. And I love sms. However, I acutally type all words on my message properly, as I dont like to use that silly stuff even on an sms! I do however, use the odd LOL or whatever...

Yeah me too. I send at least 20-30 SMS a day. I always use the dictionary function on nokia mobile phones, so no small speak, except lol and hehe or haha.

I went to public school and am in my 3rd year doing Business and Commerce at uni, and I work as a paraplanner (which involves writing financial plans for financial planners). As I said before it really is the student, the kids have to want to learn.

In XRChic's case, it sounds like a pretty bad experience with the public education sector. My experience is the opposite with my older brother attending a prominent private high school in our area, only to have learning difficulties overlooked and even some what ridiculed, finishing up with expulsion. End result = out of court settlement. So it can work both ways.