Holden makes a V12

Iphido · 24-03-2007, 09:06 AM

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...rticleID=37286

Interviewed in Britain last week at the opening of a Hummer dealership, Lutz said Australian engineers are already working on the new V12.

I have always stated I would love to see Ford make a V12 out of the 4.0 I6 engine.

Holden seems to be able to do all the great projects, Fords stuck with the bare minium.

dishpig · 24-03-2007, 09:26 AM

I wouldn't be too dissapointed that car is fugly.

:

**GasoLane** · 24-03-2007, 09:44 AM

Why a V12? Dont forget that V12's were only made for smoothness (if thats the right word) not power.

GXL078 · 24-03-2007, 09:51 AM

5.0L V12 BMW only made 220Kw in 1988

anakha · 24-03-2007, 10:13 AM

Let us not forget that the current Holden V6 is a pile. I don't see two of them together being any better.

As far as cool Ford engines, they developed a short stroke modular V10 (5.8L no less) which was a screamer.

XRated · 24-03-2007, 10:51 AM

Knowing our luck; it'll be a rubbish engine, big success, and optional in the Caprice and Grange :P

Mongoose · 24-03-2007, 11:32 AM

that thing was on top gear back in like 2005

majin_andrew · 24-03-2007, 09:44 PM

that cadillac is ugly. I don't understand why Holden would get the job of making the V12, they don't have much experience in making engines.

Quote:

The plush new sedan, described by GM as an all-American rival for the Mercedes-Benz S-Class and Lexus LS 460, will provide buyers with a home grown alternative to some of the world’s most distinguished luxury cars at a price that is likely to undercut the competition dramatically.

If it was all American, wouldn't that suggest that the engine was developed in America? or does that just mean it will be produced in America?
I guess, the Alloytec is an American engine to start with.

MITCHAY · 24-03-2007, 09:53 PM

Like I said on another forum. I hate the sound one makes at *** I can imagine how bad it would sound with two of them! Fine for A to B and the occasional C commuting but as far as performance is concerned I wouldn't believe in it.

: Wide Open Throttle abbrievation censored?

The G6ET Spot · 24-03-2007, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Why a V12? Dont forget that V12's were only made for smoothness (if thats the right word) not power.

Maybe you should tell the engineers at Ferrari and Lamborgini that they are doing something wrong then. Getting 500 - 600hp out of V12's then

**GasoLane** · 24-03-2007, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAPID XR8

Maybe you should tell the engineers at Ferrari and Lamborgini that they are doing something wrong then. Getting 500 - 600hp out of V12's then

I never said that they were'nt doing it right, but you can get that hp out of any V8. The difference is that a 12 is a lot smoother. Manufacturers dont make all those extra moving parts just for the fun of it.

I've had two Jag V12's both over 30 years old and with the original engines. But you could stand a 20c piece up on the engine when it was idling, try that on a V8.

Unfortunately both were near impossible to get a nice 'note' from the exhaust, they just sounded like two very smooth six's!

Piotr · 25-03-2007, 01:05 AM

If you wanted to you can get the same power from a single cylinder but that doesn't make it right

pauljh74 · 25-03-2007, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xcgxl

5.0L V12 BMW only made 220Kw in 1988

What was the Holden V8's power in 1988? About 165Kw standard. The Group A didn't show up until 1990. The Falcon didn't have a V8 at that time of course. But 220kw from a 5.0 V8 in a prestige car (which means it's tuned to be more refined and not set up for pure grunt) in 1988 stands up pretty well.

normxb · 25-03-2007, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Cylinder de-activation, which shuts down half of the cylinders during cruising

Isn't what they do now ? :hihi: :hihi:

Steffo · 25-03-2007, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauljh74

What was the Holden V8's power in 1988? About 165Kw standard. The Group A didn't show up until 1990. The Falcon didn't have a V8 at that time of course. But 220kw from a 5.0 V8 in a prestige car (which means it's tuned to be more refined and not set up for pure grunt) in 1988 stands up pretty well.

It was a 5.0 V12 not a V8. It had 220kW @ 5200rpm and 450Nm @ 4100rpm in 1988. And ran on 91 RON.

Their V8 at that time (740iL - 1992) was a 4.0litre with 210kW @ 4500rpm and 400Nm @ 2800rpm. You could say the V12 was a little bit on the dissapointing side in comparison.

Iphido · 25-03-2007, 11:03 AM

Would love to see a 7.2L V12 HSV Grange.

I know I would. Its not like they are making a 6.0L V12, they are making a 7.2 L.. With nearly 400 kw of silky power

**TUF_302** · 25-03-2007, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRated

Knowing our luck; it'll be a rubbish engine, big success, and optional in the Caprice and Grange :P

Sounds about right lol! :evil_laug

Piotr · 25-03-2007, 12:23 PM

The 750il was a very good engine in its time. It weighed less than the 3.5L V8 used by BMW at the time, had dual ECU's (One running each bank) and first ever use of drive-by-wire throttle on a road car.

The Benz rival engine at the time was a 5.5L V8 with 183kw and 400nm of torque. So the V12 unit totally destroyed it.

Falc'man · 25-03-2007, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Why a V12? Dont forget that V12's were only made for smoothness (if thats the right word) not power.

Yes you are right about smoothness. An inherently smoother motor means less vibration which equals higher rpm which means more power.

Example, a 5 litre V12 will always have more power than a 5 litre V8. One reason is the V12 has less reciprocating mass than the V8, which in turn allows higher rpm - more power. Another reason is there are more explosions (is that the right word?) per cycle/revolution in a V12, meaning better balance, and as I mentioned before, less vibration - more power.

As for the Alloytec being a noisy unit, thats partly due to the nature of the V6 configuration. It would be much more balanced and alot smoother once its a V12.

Hybrid34 · 25-03-2007, 01:13 PM

[QUOTE=Falc'man]. Another reason is there are more explosions (is that the right word?)

Combustion ;)

Rev28K · 25-03-2007, 04:09 PM

The early V12’s weren’t BMW’s finest moment. One German tuner (sister company to the Brabus Mercedes tuner?) even called them the “worlds most expensive vibrator”.
Have a look on the resale of an 850i and an 840i and the V8 is cheaper – alright some of them are newer but still the servicing costs for that V12 are high .

V12 compared to V8 for the same capacity? Have a look at F1 their capacity was limited at the time but the number of cylinders was free V8’s had lower friction, V12’s had a smaller combustion chamber that gave a more controlled ignition cycle. What did most manufacturer’s do? They went to a V10 which was a compromise between the 2 other layouts.
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/99/ita/preview/faq.html

Piotr · 25-03-2007, 05:17 PM

The FIA regulations forced everyone to adopt the V10.

Rev28K · 25-03-2007, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr

The FIA regulations forced everyone to adopt the V10.

This is the first year for everyone using V8's. Last year Torro Rosso could run a rev-limited V10.

There were some seasons when engine configuration was open (can you imagine anyone other than BRM trying to use an H16!). All you had was an engine capacity, fuel capacity, etc.

Have a look in 1995 – Ferrari were using a V12, Williams were using Renault V10 and Simtek were using Ford EDB V8s.

Have a look at this site http://www.allf1.info/

– While you are there have a look at the neat Ferrari 126C4 didn’t win much but looked horn/ugly. They had to run a flat floor that season and a lot of the aero had to go on top (became visible)

Krytox · 25-03-2007, 05:40 PM

Best motor i've ever heard is the BRM V16
1.5ltr V16 running upto 72psi boost and generating upto 612bhp

The cylinders were no bigger than ya Nanna's Knitting Thimble!

its engineering at its best.... however.. it was no success

So much torque it span in every gear with a squirt of 1/2 throttle.. they just couldn't drive it.
Also the other drivers on the track couldn't hear their own cars over this beauty.

do a search BRM v16
heres a bit of info:
http://gpl.krej.cz/mp3.html

.

Iphido · 25-03-2007, 08:03 PM

The V12 design would be easy for both Ford and Holden to spin off existing 6 cylinder designs.

The engines would be smoother, more powerful with greater torque. Capacity is through the roof.

A 8.0L V12 Fairmont Ghia or more preferably a LTD.

To do it yourself wouldn't be impossible. It would be easier to do it with the 3.6L alloytec because all you need to do is cast a block and bolt the heads on. With the Ford you would need someone at Ford OZ to mirror the heads for you.. Block casting and machining will cost ~ $20,000. Expensive but not outragous.

The V8 are too common these days. We need some overengineered V12. Something with some low down grunt (like 770Nm @ 2500 rpm.) naturally asperated..

I guess no one here would be interested in a 8.0L supercharged V12 (for that WW2 fighter sound) LTD? What a nice way to see the end of fossil fuels out with.

big fella · 25-03-2007, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Another reason is there are more explosions (is that the right word?) per cycle/revolution in a V12, meaning better balance, and as I mentioned before, less vibration - more power.

If you were to extrapolate your "more explosions per cycle" theory for engine balance, then it would just be a case of the more the better. It's been a while, but, when I was at school, the inherent balance or unbalance of engine configurations was explained through the primary, secondary and tertiary vibrations caused by an engine.

It just so happens that inline sixes and V12s have a better natural balance. A V16 would have the same sort of inbalance issues as a V8. It's the same reason some inline fours and V6s have balance shafts that run at twice engine RPM

Fev · 25-03-2007, 10:18 PM

umm guys.. its actually 2 LS2 V8 engines combined.. not a V12 but a V16.. or atleast that was when i read when they came out with that thing ages ago..

Squalo · 26-03-2007, 03:22 AM

The article in question says 3.6l V6 engines. What a waste of time, money and engineering talent, the 3.6 is a clunker and I can't imagine why they would bother?

O/T, but this particular topic reminds me (even more than a lot of other topics) of this - note that no offence is intended towards any of our esteemed contributors : )

http://xkcd.com/c202.html

jimmy_c · 26-03-2007, 04:10 AM

I doubt they would use a crude version of the alloytec the one in the alfa romeo is a sweet unit.

Its much more than ford is working on. Good on them for having a go. When was the last production V12 exported to Australia. what 1993/1994 in a jaguar ?

jimmy_c · 26-03-2007, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Like I said on another forum. I hate the sound one makes at *** I can imagine how bad it would sound with two of them! Fine for A to B and the occasional C commuting but as far as performance is concerned I wouldn't believe in it.

: Wide Open Throttle abbrievation censored?

It would sound much nicer than that poxy subaru sound with a cannon exhaust.

:lookedat: